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	<title>Comments on: The Pratt Brothers, the Holy Spirit, and Navigating Materialist Theology</title>
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	<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/</link>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-97740</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jan 2011 08:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for stopping by John, and thanks for pointing out the &quot;Holy Spirit&quot; reference. I actually fixed it later on when I was preparing excerpts of this for publication.

And I am well aware of the broader written corpus of the Pratt brothers--thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for stopping by John, and thanks for pointing out the &#8220;Holy Spirit&#8221; reference. I actually fixed it later on when I was preparing excerpts of this for publication.</p>
<p>And I am well aware of the broader written corpus of the Pratt brothers&#8211;thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: John A. Coltharp</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-97724</link>
		<dc:creator>John A. Coltharp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jan 2011 06:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-97724</guid>
		<description>Orson Pratt&#039;s pamphlet entitled &quot;The Holy Spirit&quot; was not part of &quot;A Series of Pamphlets.&quot; The first footnote is wrong. It was published by itself in Liverpool, on &quot;November 15, 1856.&quot; 

(See http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/NCMP1820-1846&amp;CISOPTR=17394 and http://relarchive.byu.edu/MPNC/descriptions/eight.html )

Orson Pratt published an article bearing the same name in the Millennial Star, vol. 12, no. 20 (15 Oct. 1850), pp. 305-09; and in no. 21 (1 Nov. 1850), pp. 325-28.

The Pratts first began publishing their philosophical ideas about matter and spirit in The Prophet (25 May 1844 - 24 May 1845), and its successor, The New-York Messenger (5 July 1845 - 15 Dec. 1845). Also of interest is Orson Pratt&#039;s &quot;Prophetic Almanac, for 1846&quot; (c. 1845), which on these subjects is mostly a duplicate of what is found in the two just-mentioned periodicals.

Parley P. Pratt also published a couple of essays in Nauvoo entitled &quot;Immortality and Eternal Life of the Material Body&quot; and &quot;Intelligence and Affection.&quot;

I think it&#039;s good to read all of these earlier things first, to get a better understanding of how the beliefs of the Pratt brothers evolved into their view of the impersonal Holy Spirit that Brigham Young condemned.

Some of the deeper mysteries about intelligence (or &quot;the Holy Spirit,&quot; as the Pratt&#039;s called it), are revealed in an address by Willard Richards, which he gave to the University of Deseret, 17 April 1850. He published his address twice in pamphlet form, and it was also published by Orson Hyde in Frontier Guardian, vol. 2, no. 21 (Kanesville: 13 Nov. 1850), p. [1]. I believe that Richards most likely learned these things firsthand from Joseph Smith. What is taught in there, in my opinion, solves the problem that the Pratt&#039;s couldn&#039;t seem to figure out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orson Pratt&#8217;s pamphlet entitled &#8220;The Holy Spirit&#8221; was not part of &#8220;A Series of Pamphlets.&#8221; The first footnote is wrong. It was published by itself in Liverpool, on &#8220;November 15, 1856.&#8221; </p>
<p>(See <a href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/NCMP1820-1846&#038;CISOPTR=17394" rel="nofollow">http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/NCMP1820-1846&#038;CISOPTR=17394</a> and <a href="http://relarchive.byu.edu/MPNC/descriptions/eight.html" rel="nofollow">http://relarchive.byu.edu/MPNC/descriptions/eight.html</a> )</p>
<p>Orson Pratt published an article bearing the same name in the Millennial Star, vol. 12, no. 20 (15 Oct. 1850), pp. 305-09; and in no. 21 (1 Nov. 1850), pp. 325-28.</p>
<p>The Pratts first began publishing their philosophical ideas about matter and spirit in The Prophet (25 May 1844 &#8211; 24 May 1845), and its successor, The New-York Messenger (5 July 1845 &#8211; 15 Dec. 1845). Also of interest is Orson Pratt&#8217;s &#8220;Prophetic Almanac, for 1846&#8243; (c. 1845), which on these subjects is mostly a duplicate of what is found in the two just-mentioned periodicals.</p>
<p>Parley P. Pratt also published a couple of essays in Nauvoo entitled &#8220;Immortality and Eternal Life of the Material Body&#8221; and &#8220;Intelligence and Affection.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s good to read all of these earlier things first, to get a better understanding of how the beliefs of the Pratt brothers evolved into their view of the impersonal Holy Spirit that Brigham Young condemned.</p>
<p>Some of the deeper mysteries about intelligence (or &#8220;the Holy Spirit,&#8221; as the Pratt&#8217;s called it), are revealed in an address by Willard Richards, which he gave to the University of Deseret, 17 April 1850. He published his address twice in pamphlet form, and it was also published by Orson Hyde in Frontier Guardian, vol. 2, no. 21 (Kanesville: 13 Nov. 1850), p. [1]. I believe that Richards most likely learned these things firsthand from Joseph Smith. What is taught in there, in my opinion, solves the problem that the Pratt&#8217;s couldn&#8217;t seem to figure out.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-40176</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#13: this actually sounds correct to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#13: this actually sounds correct to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Geisner</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39681</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Geisner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39681</guid>
		<description>Thank you Mark. 

I look forward to reading your book. I am sure I will learn plenty. Has Greg given you any idea when the book will be available. I have my order in place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Mark. </p>
<p>I look forward to reading your book. I am sure I will learn plenty. Has Greg given you any idea when the book will be available. I have my order in place.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Staker</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39636</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Staker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39636</guid>
		<description>Joe,

Yes, I had access to transcripts from the BCR while doing my book but I did not cite them because I did not know when the existence of that material would be announced. I was able to cite Bob Woodford&#039;s publication that provided correct dates for the revelations and I drew from other manuscript copies of the revelations that reflected the content of the BCR. (The book focused more on the context rather than the content of the revelations, however, which I could deal with without citing the material. If I did so effectively remains to be seen.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>Yes, I had access to transcripts from the BCR while doing my book but I did not cite them because I did not know when the existence of that material would be announced. I was able to cite Bob Woodford&#8217;s publication that provided correct dates for the revelations and I drew from other manuscript copies of the revelations that reflected the content of the BCR. (The book focused more on the context rather than the content of the revelations, however, which I could deal with without citing the material. If I did so effectively remains to be seen.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Geisner</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39604</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Geisner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39604</guid>
		<description>Mark #12,

Thanks for pointing out the interesting autobiography quote. It makes you wonder if the two collaborated or if Pratt was working with someone else. Has Crawley said anything about this?

How is &quot;Hearken O Ye People&quot; doing? I look forward to reading the book. Did you have access to the BCR in your research on the Ohio revelations?

Ben,

I personally like Crawley&#039;s explanation that Young had little to no problem with Parley because his writings were allusive while Orson&#039;s were dogmatic. &quot;Key&quot; was printed three more times and &quot;Voice&quot; four more times between 1857-1877 while Young was alive. Nothing from Orson between 1857-1877.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark #12,</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the interesting autobiography quote. It makes you wonder if the two collaborated or if Pratt was working with someone else. Has Crawley said anything about this?</p>
<p>How is &#8220;Hearken O Ye People&#8221; doing? I look forward to reading the book. Did you have access to the BCR in your research on the Ohio revelations?</p>
<p>Ben,</p>
<p>I personally like Crawley&#8217;s explanation that Young had little to no problem with Parley because his writings were allusive while Orson&#8217;s were dogmatic. &#8220;Key&#8221; was printed three more times and &#8220;Voice&#8221; four more times between 1857-1877 while Young was alive. Nothing from Orson between 1857-1877.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39583</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39583</guid>
		<description>Good &#039;ol Brigham. We could make a whole collection of things he claimed came out of JS&#039;s mouth.

But the Holy Spirit was definitely one of the main points of debate between Orson and BY (as portrayed in Bergera&#039;s book). The question is, why did BY get after OP concerning it, but never Parley? Perhaps it&#039;s because PP was killed before he could be chastised. It is interesting how OP obviously knew about JS&#039;s teachings concerning the Holy Ghost, and therefore felt bound to at least acknowledge it as a personage along with the voluminous spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good &#8216;ol Brigham. We could make a whole collection of things he claimed came out of JS&#8217;s mouth.</p>
<p>But the Holy Spirit was definitely one of the main points of debate between Orson and BY (as portrayed in Bergera&#8217;s book). The question is, why did BY get after OP concerning it, but never Parley? Perhaps it&#8217;s because PP was killed before he could be chastised. It is interesting how OP obviously knew about JS&#8217;s teachings concerning the Holy Ghost, and therefore felt bound to at least acknowledge it as a personage along with the voluminous spirit.</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39578</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39578</guid>
		<description>In reading the above, one of my favorite Brigham Young quotes came to mind (JD 4:266):

&lt;blockquote&gt;We have no light, no power at present, only what is given to us. Brother Hyde calls it borrowing, but I call it a free gift, or begging. The Lord&#039;s giving does not diminish His fountain of spirit that our philosopher brother Orson Pratt speaks of, that he believes occupies universal space, or, in other words, that universal space is filled with, and that every particle of it is a Holy Spirit, and that spirit is all powerful and all wise, full of intelligence and possessing all the attributes of all the Gods in eternity. I hardly dare say what I think and what I know, but that theory, though apparently very plausible and beautiful, is not true, for it is, or would be contradicted by the Prophets, by Jesus and the Apostles, and by all good men who understand the principles of eternity, both those who have lived and are now living on the earth. Brother Hyde was upon this same theory once, and in conversation with brother Joseph Smith advanced the idea that eternity or boundless space was filled with the Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost. After portraying his views upon that theory very carefully and minutely, he asked brother Joseph what he thought of it? He replied that it appeared very beautiful, and that he did not know of but one serious objection to it. Says brother Hyde, &quot;What is that?&quot; Joseph replied, &quot;it is not true.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reading the above, one of my favorite Brigham Young quotes came to mind (JD 4:266):</p>
<blockquote><p>We have no light, no power at present, only what is given to us. Brother Hyde calls it borrowing, but I call it a free gift, or begging. The Lord&#8217;s giving does not diminish His fountain of spirit that our philosopher brother Orson Pratt speaks of, that he believes occupies universal space, or, in other words, that universal space is filled with, and that every particle of it is a Holy Spirit, and that spirit is all powerful and all wise, full of intelligence and possessing all the attributes of all the Gods in eternity. I hardly dare say what I think and what I know, but that theory, though apparently very plausible and beautiful, is not true, for it is, or would be contradicted by the Prophets, by Jesus and the Apostles, and by all good men who understand the principles of eternity, both those who have lived and are now living on the earth. Brother Hyde was upon this same theory once, and in conversation with brother Joseph Smith advanced the idea that eternity or boundless space was filled with the Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost. After portraying his views upon that theory very carefully and minutely, he asked brother Joseph what he thought of it? He replied that it appeared very beautiful, and that he did not know of but one serious objection to it. Says brother Hyde, &#8220;What is that?&#8221; Joseph replied, &#8220;it is not true.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mark Staker</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39567</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Staker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39567</guid>
		<description>Ben, These are great insights. It is so difficult to sort out who influenced whom in the development of Mormon Theology. I&#039;m struck by Mary Ann Sterns Winters&#039; account of her mother&#039;s marriage to Parley P. Pratt in Kirtland and the journey of the family to New York to serve a mission. Mary Ann implies in her account that her mother played a significant role in helping write A Voice of Warning. &quot;During these times I would have to sit down and keep very still, and I heard the whole of that book read before it ever was printed. . . . I must not make a noise to distrub them . . . I understood they were writing a book about the gospel--and I did try my very best to be a good little girl and do just what was required of me, in self control.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, These are great insights. It is so difficult to sort out who influenced whom in the development of Mormon Theology. I&#8217;m struck by Mary Ann Sterns Winters&#8217; account of her mother&#8217;s marriage to Parley P. Pratt in Kirtland and the journey of the family to New York to serve a mission. Mary Ann implies in her account that her mother played a significant role in helping write A Voice of Warning. &#8220;During these times I would have to sit down and keep very still, and I heard the whole of that book read before it ever was printed. . . . I must not make a noise to distrub them . . . I understood they were writing a book about the gospel&#8211;and I did try my very best to be a good little girl and do just what was required of me, in self control.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-pratt-brothers-the-holy-spirit-and-navigating-materialist-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-39085</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=1357#comment-39085</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Rick; you always bring up the best contemporary sources.

Sam: thanks on all 4 accounts, especially in bringing up more context. I didn&#039;t give this post (or it&#039;s topic) any more than just an afternoon&#039;s thought, so I haven&#039;t even considered contextualizing this theme (and I don&#039;t plan on spending any more time on it), but if I wanted to look at it anymore I will definitely take up your suggestions.

It&#039;s always great to have such able historians comment on these posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Rick; you always bring up the best contemporary sources.</p>
<p>Sam: thanks on all 4 accounts, especially in bringing up more context. I didn&#8217;t give this post (or it&#8217;s topic) any more than just an afternoon&#8217;s thought, so I haven&#8217;t even considered contextualizing this theme (and I don&#8217;t plan on spending any more time on it), but if I wanted to look at it anymore I will definitely take up your suggestions.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s always great to have such able historians comment on these posts.</p>
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