Comments on: The new new Mormon history: a response read at MHA, May 24, 2008 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:02:41 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Juvenile Instructor » From The Archives: Posts You Might Have Missed, March-May 2008 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-40164 Juvenile Instructor » From The Archives: Posts You Might Have Missed, March-May 2008 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:52:14 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-40164 [...] The New New Mormon History: A Response Read at MHA May 24, 2008 [...] [...] The New New Mormon History: A Response Read at MHA May 24, 2008 [...]

]]> By: Juvenile Instructor » Interpreting Early Mormon Thought http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-29441 Juvenile Instructor » Interpreting Early Mormon Thought Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:17:39 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-29441 [...] I’ve mentioned before, and as Matt B. pointed out at last year’s MHA, intellectual history is a growing trend in Mormon studies; indeed, many of the posts on this site [...] [...] I’ve mentioned before, and as Matt B. pointed out at last year’s MHA, intellectual history is a growing trend in Mormon studies; indeed, many of the posts on this site [...]

]]> By: Juvenile Instructor » Bowman on “The Crisis of Mormon Christology” http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-26391 Juvenile Instructor » Bowman on “The Crisis of Mormon Christology” Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:26:11 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-26391 [...] exactly the sort of methodologically-informed history that Mormon studies so desperately needs (and that Matt himself called for at last year’s MHA). It speaks to larger issues, and successfully situates Mormonism within a comparative religious [...] [...] exactly the sort of methodologically-informed history that Mormon studies so desperately needs (and that Matt himself called for at last year’s MHA). It speaks to larger issues, and successfully situates Mormonism within a comparative religious [...]

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-7215 Clark Fri, 30 May 2008 20:40:00 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-7215 The two poles of positivism and relativism introduce a false dichotomy. There are a lot more options. The two poles of positivism and relativism introduce a false dichotomy. There are a lot more options.

]]> By: Juvenile Instructor » Marginal Dialogues: The B. H. Roberts Memorial Library http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-7173 Juvenile Instructor » Marginal Dialogues: The B. H. Roberts Memorial Library Fri, 30 May 2008 15:01:58 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-7173 [...] cumulative evolutionary effect, Roberts noted: “Not so with the cursed Lamanites.” (See Matt Bowman’s comments here–last paragraph of [...] [...] cumulative evolutionary effect, Roberts noted: “Not so with the cursed Lamanites.” (See Matt Bowman’s comments here–last paragraph of [...]

]]> By: Seth R. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-6870 Seth R. Wed, 28 May 2008 18:15:15 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-6870 I wasn't making accusations so much as expressing concerns. I wasn’t making accusations so much as expressing concerns.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-6866 SC Taysom Wed, 28 May 2008 17:36:05 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-6866 Seth, I know of no responsible scholar who would ever, ever, advocate the kind of loose-cannon activity you are describing. Do you have some specific work in mind here? I have a hard time imagining what a work informed by theory but ignorant of available archival data ("groundwork") would look like. It strikes me as a bit of a straw man. And as a matter of clarification, I don't know what anyone is or is not "automatically entitled to" when it comes to writing history. Anyone who has spent long enough in graduate school to get a PhD isn't dealing with anything being "automatically" granted by Clio, or the history geenie, or whoever. Seth,

I know of no responsible scholar who would ever, ever, advocate the kind of loose-cannon activity you are describing. Do you have some specific work in mind here? I have a hard time imagining what a work informed by theory but ignorant of available archival data (“groundwork”) would look like. It strikes me as a bit of a straw man. And as a matter of clarification, I don’t know what anyone is or is not “automatically entitled to” when it comes to writing history. Anyone who has spent long enough in graduate school to get a PhD isn’t dealing with anything being “automatically” granted by Clio, or the history geenie, or whoever.

]]> By: Seth R. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-6861 Seth R. Wed, 28 May 2008 16:53:45 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-6861 Taysom, I guess I'm OK with that as long as the groundwork isn't being ignored. The privilege of engaging in the sort of "nuanced" scholarship you are talking about is something you aren't automatically entitled to. It's something you earn AFTER you have a good grasp of the "positivist" facts that are available. Once a student of Mormon history has a good foundation of "objective" facts, THEN I have no objection to them wandering off into theoretical areas. But you need that informed and disciplined foundation. Taysom,

I guess I’m OK with that as long as the groundwork isn’t being ignored.

The privilege of engaging in the sort of “nuanced” scholarship you are talking about is something you aren’t automatically entitled to. It’s something you earn AFTER you have a good grasp of the “positivist” facts that are available. Once a student of Mormon history has a good foundation of “objective” facts, THEN I have no objection to them wandering off into theoretical areas.

But you need that informed and disciplined foundation.

]]> By: Rick Grunder http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-6856 Rick Grunder Wed, 28 May 2008 16:28:41 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-6856 The balanced scholar craves mature, comprehensive overviews of historical events and thought. Too often, however, the panoramas which we paint are not distilled from extensive details, so much as they are extrapolated in a near vacuum from a few fragments which are most readily available – or philosophically convenient. When, by contrast, a larger, more authentic view finally strikes the eye in some unexpected moment, it can feel like a revelation - like pausing during a hill climb to survey the scene after having focused intently upon a difficult path. This wider appreciation is only won as a natural reward of mastering each component of the tangled environment, perceiving every pitfall and measuring every step, to whatever extent our observations and our perceptions allow. A successful climb requires training, conditioning, and equipment. That is why, before the final ascent of history, vast archives are assembled – and why some historians need to spend more time there. ". . . [I]n the past," lamented noted Mormon researcher Dale Morgan, <blockquote>too much has been done in isolation, the training of historians, librarians, and archivists proceeding in separate and only hopefully parallel paths. Nobody who has thought about this can be particularly happy over the results. We come up with historians who are abominably ignorant of the most elementary principles of bibliography, pathetically dependent on librarians to lead them by the hand, totally lost in an archive. We come up with librarians who have been technically equipped to deal with the management of books and the disposition of reference inquiries and yet are totally innocent of the creative mind which alone enables a library to remain or become great. We come up with archivists who have been superbly trained for narrow jobs, and vanish into them like moles into the ground, nevermore to be seen in the light of day. [Dale Morgan, "The Archivist, the Librarian, And the Historian," off-print from the <em>Library Journal </em>93:22 (December 15, 1968), pp. 4621-4623, (quoted here from the sixth, unnumbered page of this eight-page pamphlet].</blockquote> If we will learn to work together more watchfully, pausing longer to respect even that which seems most mundane, we can do a better job of interpreting the grand historical and sociological phenomena: from the narrow to the broad (but not too quickly), then back to grass roots again, over and over, each time emerging still more triumphant over the misconceptions and the premature generalizations of our past. The balanced scholar craves mature, comprehensive overviews of historical events and thought. Too often, however, the panoramas which we paint are not distilled from extensive details, so much as they are extrapolated in a near vacuum from a few fragments which are most readily available – or philosophically convenient. When, by contrast, a larger, more authentic view finally strikes the eye in some unexpected moment, it can feel like a revelation – like pausing during a hill climb to survey the scene after having focused intently upon a difficult path. This wider appreciation is only won as a natural reward of mastering each component of the tangled environment, perceiving every pitfall and measuring every step, to whatever extent our observations and our perceptions allow. A successful climb requires training, conditioning, and equipment. That is why, before the final ascent of history, vast archives are assembled – and why some historians need to spend more time there. “. . . [I]n the past,” lamented noted Mormon researcher Dale Morgan,

too much has been done in isolation, the training of historians, librarians, and archivists proceeding in separate and only hopefully parallel paths. Nobody who has thought about this can be particularly happy over the results. We come up with historians who are abominably ignorant of the most elementary principles of bibliography, pathetically dependent on librarians to lead them by the hand, totally lost in an archive. We come up with librarians who have been technically equipped to deal with the management of books and the disposition of reference inquiries and yet are totally innocent of the creative mind which alone enables a library to remain or become great. We come up with archivists who have been superbly trained for narrow jobs, and vanish into them like moles into the ground, nevermore to be seen in the light of day. [Dale Morgan, "The Archivist, the Librarian, And the Historian," off-print from the Library Journal 93:22 (December 15, 1968), pp. 4621-4623, (quoted here from the sixth, unnumbered page of this eight-page pamphlet].

If we will learn to work together more watchfully, pausing longer to respect even that which seems most mundane, we can do a better job of interpreting the grand historical and sociological phenomena: from the narrow to the broad (but not too quickly), then back to grass roots again, over and over, each time emerging still more triumphant over the misconceptions and the premature generalizations of our past.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-6854 SC Taysom Wed, 28 May 2008 15:54:53 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-new-new-mormon-history-a-response-read-at-mha-may-24-2008/#comment-6854 Seth, I understand your reservations about "relativism" unleashed, but I think they may be misplaced here. I think, for example, that calling for a toleration of ambiguity and nuance in the creation of historical narratives is not fairly characterized as "defeatism." It is, rather, an acknowledgment of what historical narratives are--intellectual constructs or matrices in which historical facts are emplotted and arranged, emphasized or ignored, on the basis of multiple cultural imperatives and individual intuition. It is just good intellectual manners to recognize that such influences are probably at work, even if we don't recognize them, and to then allow for correction or elaboration or evolution or abandonment. On the question of religion and relativism, it is possible to believe in absolute truth while remaining less sauguine about the available methods we have of ascertaining that truth. I think that this is a very Mormon way of looking at the world, and it offers at least one explanation for the changing beliefs we hold over time. Seth,
I understand your reservations about “relativism” unleashed, but I think they may be misplaced here. I think, for example, that calling for a toleration of ambiguity and nuance in the creation of historical narratives is not fairly characterized as “defeatism.” It is, rather, an acknowledgment of what historical narratives are–intellectual constructs or matrices in which historical facts are emplotted and arranged, emphasized or ignored, on the basis of multiple cultural imperatives and individual intuition. It is just good intellectual manners to recognize that such influences are probably at work, even if we don’t recognize them, and to then allow for correction or elaboration or evolution or abandonment. On the question of religion and relativism, it is possible to believe in absolute truth while remaining less sauguine about the available methods we have of ascertaining that truth. I think that this is a very Mormon way of looking at the world, and it offers at least one explanation for the changing beliefs we hold over time.

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