Comments on: The Haun’s Mill Massacre in Mormon Memory http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:22:56 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Eric Boysen http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1516 Eric Boysen Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:03:03 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1516 Martyrs always have a choice. By staying when they were warned to flee, the adults at least were choosing potential martyrdom. Joseph returning to Illinois knew what to expect as did the brethren who joined him in Carthage. Martyrdom requires choosing death over denial of a testimony. That choice can be made well in advance of the death. Martyrs always have a choice. By staying when they were warned to flee, the adults at least were choosing potential martyrdom. Joseph returning to Illinois knew what to expect as did the brethren who joined him in Carthage. Martyrdom requires choosing death over denial of a testimony. That choice can be made well in advance of the death.

]]> By: Expounding on the martyrdom qualifications of those at Haun’s Mill « Banner, Sword, and Shield http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1116 Expounding on the martyrdom qualifications of those at Haun’s Mill « Banner, Sword, and Shield Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:01:38 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1116 [...] on the martyrdom qualifications of those at Haun’s Mill At Times and Seasons and Juvenile Instructor David Grua has launched an interesting question about the position of church members on the [...] [...] on the martyrdom qualifications of those at Haun’s Mill At Times and Seasons and Juvenile Instructor David Grua has launched an interesting question about the position of church members on the [...]

]]> By: JonW http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1115 JonW Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:05:58 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1115 I think I might answer this slightly differently on T and S but here is my opinion. Much of the early church period is millenial in nature until the expulsion at Missouri. After that there is pressure on Joseph over the Missouri arrest which causes him to be on the run for a part of the Nauvoo period. I am sure that as this constant pressure kept up to bring Joseph to Missouri Justice and then his Martyrdom after must have made Haun's Mill all the more important to the Saints. While I think in the context of the situation in 1842 Joseph's admonition had bearing, in part because he was teaching something. In this case I think this was during the Bennett era when members of the church, like Orson Pratt were not listening to sound council. Taken in that view I think there is nothing wrong with considering those killed at Haun's Mill as Martyrs, they died fort the testimony of Jesus and the restored Gospel. While making a bad decision does not make them less qualified in my view. I think I might answer this slightly differently on T and S but here is my opinion. Much of the early church period is millenial in nature until the expulsion at Missouri. After that there is pressure on Joseph over the Missouri arrest which causes him to be on the run for a part of the Nauvoo period. I am sure that as this constant pressure kept up to bring Joseph to Missouri Justice and then his Martyrdom after must have made Haun’s Mill all the more important to the Saints.

While I think in the context of the situation in 1842 Joseph’s admonition had bearing, in part because he was teaching something. In this case I think this was during the Bennett era when members of the church, like Orson Pratt were not listening to sound council.

Taken in that view I think there is nothing wrong with considering those killed at Haun’s Mill as Martyrs, they died fort the testimony of Jesus and the restored Gospel. While making a bad decision does not make them less qualified in my view.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1113 Christopher Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:18:14 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1113 <strong>Admin. Note:</strong> The topic of this thread is the Haun's Mill Massacre, not the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Please keep comments relevant to the topic at hand. Thank you. Admin. Note: The topic of this thread is the Haun’s Mill Massacre, not the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Please keep comments relevant to the topic at hand. Thank you.

]]> By: David Grua http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1112 David Grua Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:16:33 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1112 BiV: I haven't done a thorough analysis yet of the temple vengeance accounts or the MM vengeance accounts, but I've seen enough to have a tentative answer for you. IIRC, the vengeance oath (Van Hale suggests that it wasn't an oath but simply part of the ceremony's narrative) was inserted into the endowment ceremony prior to JS's death, so it likely referred in part to Haun's Mill, although it was ambigious "avenge the blood of the prophets". I have seen a couple of statements from the 1850s by individuals that survived Haun's Mill saying that they wanted revenge. However, it should be remembered that Mormons had been coming into direct contact with Missourians throughout the 1840s and 1850s without exacting revenge for the earlier persecutions. In my opinion, although the temple talked about vengeance, most Mormons in most contexts believed that God would supernaturally bring vengeance upon the Saints' tormentors. While I do think that the memory of Haun's Mill did play a role in what happened at MM, there were several other factors that led to that terrible outcome. BiV: I haven’t done a thorough analysis yet of the temple vengeance accounts or the MM vengeance accounts, but I’ve seen enough to have a tentative answer for you. IIRC, the vengeance oath (Van Hale suggests that it wasn’t an oath but simply part of the ceremony’s narrative) was inserted into the endowment ceremony prior to JS’s death, so it likely referred in part to Haun’s Mill, although it was ambigious “avenge the blood of the prophets”. I have seen a couple of statements from the 1850s by individuals that survived Haun’s Mill saying that they wanted revenge.

However, it should be remembered that Mormons had been coming into direct contact with Missourians throughout the 1840s and 1850s without exacting revenge for the earlier persecutions. In my opinion, although the temple talked about vengeance, most Mormons in most contexts believed that God would supernaturally bring vengeance upon the Saints’ tormentors. While I do think that the memory of Haun’s Mill did play a role in what happened at MM, there were several other factors that led to that terrible outcome.

]]> By: BiV http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1111 BiV Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:56:09 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1111 David, What effect, if any, do you feel Haun's Mill had upon the later injunction during temple rites to avenge the blood of the martyrs? Do you think this vow of vengeance in turn had an effect upon those local leaders who made tragic decisions at Mountain Meadows? Having had vengeance invoked in a temple setting, was it on their minds when they were deciding how to react to wagon trains from Arkansas and Missouri coming through their territory? David, What effect, if any, do you feel Haun’s Mill had upon the later injunction during temple rites to avenge the blood of the martyrs? Do you think this vow of vengeance in turn had an effect upon those local leaders who made tragic decisions at Mountain Meadows? Having had vengeance invoked in a temple setting, was it on their minds when they were deciding how to react to wagon trains from Arkansas and Missouri coming through their territory?

]]> By: David Grua http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1110 David Grua Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:20:21 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1110 BHodges: I agree. It seems to me that using Haun's Mill to teach obedience places the burden of the narrative on the victims, rather than perpetrators. BHodges: I agree. It seems to me that using Haun’s Mill to teach obedience places the burden of the narrative on the victims, rather than perpetrators.

]]> By: BHodges http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/comment-page-1/#comment-1109 BHodges Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:57:43 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-hauns-mill-massacre-in-mormon-memory/#comment-1109 I feel that using Haun's Mill incident to teach obedience seems like a scare tactic. If they disobeyed counsel to move, and suffered as a result, it doesn't change the fact they were killed as Mormons, and had they not been connected with the cause they would not have suffered thusly. I think the massacre can be used in conjunction with the Mountain Meadows massacre, as well. There are some important parallels for us to learn from <em>both </em>of these incidents. I feel that using Haun’s Mill incident to teach obedience seems like a scare tactic. If they disobeyed counsel to move, and suffered as a result, it doesn’t change the fact they were killed as Mormons, and had they not been connected with the cause they would not have suffered thusly.

I think the massacre can be used in conjunction with the Mountain Meadows massacre, as well. There are some important parallels for us to learn from both of these incidents.

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