Comments on: the dangers of art and a Christian hermeneutic http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: sam http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-14115 sam Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:36:35 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-14115 17, <em>The Shakers believed that in everything they did, they should glorify God–whether it was planting their fields or cleaning their houses. They said, “Hands to work and hearts to God.” If we follow their example with art, either in the creation or viewing of it, we will be safe.</em> If we follow their example with art, we won't have any. Or at least none which resembles anything that we today call art. 17, The Shakers believed that in everything they did, they should glorify God–whether it was planting their fields or cleaning their houses. They said, “Hands to work and hearts to God.” If we follow their example with art, either in the creation or viewing of it, we will be safe.

If we follow their example with art, we won’t have any. Or at least none which resembles anything that we today call art.

]]> By: Bro. Jones http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-14019 Bro. Jones Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:47:11 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-14019 #17 - I'm always troubled by the "remember the weakest among us" argument. In all humility, my intellect is one of my greatest spiritual weaknesses--sometimes pride, self-righteousness, or simple boredom are my greatest obstacles to feeling the Spirit. That said, it's admittedly easy to bore me--as soon as the General Primary Presidency starts talking in conference, for example, it's usually easy for me to tune out. So that said, should I insist that all conference addresses refer to Greek tragedy (I recently heard a stake conference talk that did!) or other "smart stuff" simply because I might get bored at hearing another story about pigeons, and might potentially turn away from the Spirit? I do see what you're getting at, but it's hard to find things that offend zero people. And as I always say to folks: "If everything that we adults consume should also be consumable by children, then that means we should let Primary kids get endowed in the temple, right?" #17 – I’m always troubled by the “remember the weakest among us” argument. In all humility, my intellect is one of my greatest spiritual weaknesses–sometimes pride, self-righteousness, or simple boredom are my greatest obstacles to feeling the Spirit. That said, it’s admittedly easy to bore me–as soon as the General Primary Presidency starts talking in conference, for example, it’s usually easy for me to tune out.

So that said, should I insist that all conference addresses refer to Greek tragedy (I recently heard a stake conference talk that did!) or other “smart stuff” simply because I might get bored at hearing another story about pigeons, and might potentially turn away from the Spirit?

I do see what you’re getting at, but it’s hard to find things that offend zero people. And as I always say to folks: “If everything that we adults consume should also be consumable by children, then that means we should let Primary kids get endowed in the temple, right?”

]]> By: matt b http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13975 matt b Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:47:31 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13975 DLD - I'm sorry if I've offended you. Let me try to clarify a few things. 1) The word 'idolatry.' I used this because the construction of your sentence placed the prophet in the active and primary role of declarer, and God in the secondary role of affirmer. It seems to me that the reverse is the case. 2) The story of atonement and redemption is the most powerful of those art can tell. It is powerful to us, and speaks to us, because we are sinners. It teaches us most profoundly about who God is. It is his ultimate work in the world. And, because ours is a fallen world, and we are sinners, that story is shot through with sin. That is the simple truth of our existence, and to ignore sin in art is to produce art that is shallow, meaningless, and does not resonate with the vibrations of God's cosmos. Now, I should be clear that there is a difference between depicting and advocating sin. But at the same time, the first is not the second. 3) I'm not sure how I'm defying scripture. Perhaps you could clarify. I'll note further that my first comment was a bit uncharitable toward you, so it's natural that you'd respond in kind. Hopefully you'll forgive whatever offense I caused. I'm happy to continue this dialogue (though I'll be unavailable after tonight), and hope that we could do it in mutual respect. DLD – I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. Let me try to clarify a few things.

1) The word ‘idolatry.’ I used this because the construction of your sentence placed the prophet in the active and primary role of declarer, and God in the secondary role of affirmer. It seems to me that the reverse is the case.

2) The story of atonement and redemption is the most powerful of those art can tell. It is powerful to us, and speaks to us, because we are sinners. It teaches us most profoundly about who God is. It is his ultimate work in the world. And, because ours is a fallen world, and we are sinners, that story is shot through with sin. That is the simple truth of our existence, and to ignore sin in art is to produce art that is shallow, meaningless, and does not resonate with the vibrations of God’s cosmos. Now, I should be clear that there is a difference between depicting and advocating sin. But at the same time, the first is not the second.

3) I’m not sure how I’m defying scripture. Perhaps you could clarify.

I’ll note further that my first comment was a bit uncharitable toward you, so it’s natural that you’d respond in kind. Hopefully you’ll forgive whatever offense I caused. I’m happy to continue this dialogue (though I’ll be unavailable after tonight), and hope that we could do it in mutual respect.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13970 Christopher Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:58:23 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13970 DLD, chill out. Disagreement and discussion is allowed and encouraged here, but suggesting that someone has "misinterpreted [the scriptures] grossly" simply because they disagree with you is uncalled for. DLD, chill out. Disagreement and discussion is allowed and encouraged here, but suggesting that someone has “misinterpreted [the scriptures] grossly” simply because they disagree with you is uncalled for.

]]> By: DLD http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13968 DLD Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:49:26 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13968 Matt, 1 - do not try and twist my words to say something other than they do. When a prophet speaks as the prophet he speaks for the Lord, it is what He wants us to hear. 2 - Yes, Christ did descend below all things. But my question to you is, would you live in your own excrement? Why seek that which is worst and basest about the natural man? Christ desceded below all things and suffered so that we would not need to. Why spit in His face and say "I'll do it myself." 3 - If you believe you can blatantly walk in defiance of what the Lord has commanded us and not lose the Spirit, you have either not read the scriptures or have misinterpreted them grossly. Matt,
1 – do not try and twist my words to say something other than they do. When a prophet speaks as the prophet he speaks for the Lord, it is what He wants us to hear.

2 – Yes, Christ did descend below all things. But my question to you is, would you live in your own excrement? Why seek that which is worst and basest about the natural man? Christ desceded below all things and suffered so that we would not need to. Why spit in His face and say “I’ll do it myself.”

3 – If you believe you can blatantly walk in defiance of what the Lord has commanded us and not lose the Spirit, you have either not read the scriptures or have misinterpreted them grossly.

]]> By: matt b http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13955 matt b Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:30:19 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13955 DLD, that scripture does not say that the prophet's counsel is the Lord's counsel; that strikes me as an idolatrous reading. Rather, it states that if God chooses to speak through his prophets, his Word (in all its senses; see #3) remains effective. Big difference. Further, I think you offer a shallow reading of what 'good art' is. Mere content does not define 'good;' a better, if still imprecise, measuring stick is that to which art directs that content. Violence and pain and suffering are bad things, yes, but it is the paradox of our salvation that God chose such means to save us, and the paradox of our existence that our world and our souls are full of them at the same time that they are struck by the light of grace. The story Christ chose to tell about himself descends below all things; if we seek to simply ignore objectionable content, we are denying our need for salvation as well as the stunning grandeur of atonement. Far better to humbly acknowledge our flaws, and to embrace art that tells the story of transcendence in all its glory than to pretend that salvation is easy. Finally, I think you think the Holy Spirit has a much weaker stomach than is actually the case. DLD, that scripture does not say that the prophet’s counsel is the Lord’s counsel; that strikes me as an idolatrous reading. Rather, it states that if God chooses to speak through his prophets, his Word (in all its senses; see #3) remains effective. Big difference.

Further, I think you offer a shallow reading of what ‘good art’ is. Mere content does not define ‘good;’ a better, if still imprecise, measuring stick is that to which art directs that content. Violence and pain and suffering are bad things, yes, but it is the paradox of our salvation that God chose such means to save us, and the paradox of our existence that our world and our souls are full of them at the same time that they are struck by the light of grace. The story Christ chose to tell about himself descends below all things; if we seek to simply ignore objectionable content, we are denying our need for salvation as well as the stunning grandeur of atonement. Far better to humbly acknowledge our flaws, and to embrace art that tells the story of transcendence in all its glory than to pretend that salvation is easy.

Finally, I think you think the Holy Spirit has a much weaker stomach than is actually the case.

]]> By: DLD http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13952 DLD Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:18:32 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13952 I never said that watching R-rated movies was the key, it was just a highly available example. My main point was that if we live to glorify the Father and have that in our intentions when we do something, it will turn out for our good. I never said that watching R-rated movies was the key, it was just a highly available example. My main point was that if we live to glorify the Father and have that in our intentions when we do something, it will turn out for our good.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13948 Elizabeth Wed, 10 Sep 2008 01:55:20 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13948 If we can't watch violent movies, then we shouldn't watch the news either. Life is violent and ignoring that fact is ignoring the essential nature of the world we live in. Yes, we should listen to the prophets, but they aren't art critics. Not watching R-rated movies is an excellent guideline, and one I believe given to us by the Lord. But people should still be able to judge when a movie is using violence for an instructive purpose or only for the sake of violence. If we can't do that, then we can't be responsible partakers of art. I too think Latter-day Saints should live their lives like the Shakers (:)), that is, in a way that glorifies God. But merely not watching R-rated movies doesn't cut it. It involves engaging the world around us, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us. How is the sight of war and poverty on the screen different from the sight of war and poverty in real life? If we can’t watch violent movies, then we shouldn’t watch the news either. Life is violent and ignoring that fact is ignoring the essential nature of the world we live in. Yes, we should listen to the prophets, but they aren’t art critics. Not watching R-rated movies is an excellent guideline, and one I believe given to us by the Lord. But people should still be able to judge when a movie is using violence for an instructive purpose or only for the sake of violence. If we can’t do that, then we can’t be responsible partakers of art.

I too think Latter-day Saints should live their lives like the Shakers (:)), that is, in a way that glorifies God. But merely not watching R-rated movies doesn’t cut it. It involves engaging the world around us, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us. How is the sight of war and poverty on the screen different from the sight of war and poverty in real life?

]]> By: DLD http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13940 DLD Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:36:52 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13940 MTN, we cannot claim to believe that there is a prophet of God on the earth and that we receive guidance from him and yet not follow it. The prophet’s counsel is the Lord’s counsel (D&C 1:38). Anytime we ignore the Lord’s counsel, we deaden ourselves to the influence of the Spirit. Therefore, any edification that may be gained by watching a violent movie such as “Schindler’s List” is negated because we have offended the Spirit. No matter its redeeming qualities, it is damaging to our soul. It is a dangerous line to cross because of the spiritual deadening we experience makes it harder for us to make right choices. Only as we draw closer to the Light may we <em>see</em> to choose. Obedience, not aesthetic judgment must be the highest good. The Shakers believed that in everything they did, they should glorify God--whether it was planting their fields or cleaning their houses. They said, “Hands to work and hearts to God.” If we follow their example with art, either in the creation or viewing of it, we will be safe. We are not honoring and glorifying our God if we go against His wisdom. We should follow what we read in Moroni 7--that which is light is from God. That which is not light is from the devil. We honor God by seeking light. LJD, I too was moved by the Kershisnik painting, but the right thing was done. If it could offend others or distract them from the Spirit, it should not be in that house of worship. The number of people who would be offended by <em>Nativity</em> would be minimal, but we serve a Master who leaves the ninety and nine and seeks after the one. Placing <em>Nativity</em> in the conference center would be forgetting the one to please the ninety and nine. In short, I do believe that good art will edify and change us. If we follow the Savior and do as He would--glorify the Father--we will inevitably choose the better art. Whether or not that causes our taste to be criticized is of little consequence. MTN, we cannot claim to believe that there is a prophet of God on the earth and that we receive guidance from him and yet not follow it. The prophet’s counsel is the Lord’s counsel (D&C 1:38). Anytime we ignore the Lord’s counsel, we deaden ourselves to the influence of the Spirit. Therefore, any edification that may be gained by watching a violent movie such as “Schindler’s List” is negated because we have offended the Spirit. No matter its redeeming qualities, it is damaging to our soul. It is a dangerous line to cross because of the spiritual deadening we experience makes it harder for us to make right choices. Only as we draw closer to the Light may we see to choose. Obedience, not aesthetic judgment must be the highest good.
The Shakers believed that in everything they did, they should glorify God–whether it was planting their fields or cleaning their houses. They said, “Hands to work and hearts to God.” If we follow their example with art, either in the creation or viewing of it, we will be safe. We are not honoring and glorifying our God if we go against His wisdom. We should follow what we read in Moroni 7–that which is light is from God. That which is not light is from the devil. We honor God by seeking light.
LJD, I too was moved by the Kershisnik painting, but the right thing was done. If it could offend others or distract them from the Spirit, it should not be in that house of worship. The number of people who would be offended by Nativity would be minimal, but we serve a Master who leaves the ninety and nine and seeks after the one. Placing Nativity in the conference center would be forgetting the one to please the ninety and nine.
In short, I do believe that good art will edify and change us. If we follow the Savior and do as He would–glorify the Father–we will inevitably choose the better art. Whether or not that causes our taste to be criticized is of little consequence.

]]> By: Mormun Aht. « The Bloggernacle Back Burner http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/comment-page-1/#comment-13929 Mormun Aht. « The Bloggernacle Back Burner Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:07:27 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/the-dangers-of-art-and-a-christian-hermeneutic/#comment-13929 [...] Mormun Aht. Ur Overstatin teh potentul. « Mai Christian [...] [...] Mormun Aht. Ur Overstatin teh potentul. « Mai Christian [...]

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