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	<title>Comments on: Joseph Smith and the Body, some thoughts</title>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-35549</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 17:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-35549</guid>
		<description>I was just going over some old posts and realized that I had written something on this topic that may be of interest:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/03/mormon-literalism-and-the-body/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/03/mormon-literalism-and-the-body/ &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just going over some old posts and realized that I had written something on this topic that may be of interest:<br />
<a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/03/mormon-literalism-and-the-body/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/03/mormon-literalism-and-the-body/" rel="nofollow">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2008/03/mormon-literalism-and-the-body/</a> </p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34359</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34359</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I buy the artist vs. systematizer opposition.  I think it clear Joseph attempted systemization (thus things like Lectures on Faith, which he supported and at least significantly influenced).  I think though that his view of continuing inquiry (either through academic study or revelation) entailed that you never reached a static presentation of theology.  That is his view of theology is closer to the perspective one has in the sciences.  (Although in the 19th century the apparent stability of mechanics in physics made one think all that left were details rather than significant reconfigurations)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I buy the artist vs. systematizer opposition.  I think it clear Joseph attempted systemization (thus things like Lectures on Faith, which he supported and at least significantly influenced).  I think though that his view of continuing inquiry (either through academic study or revelation) entailed that you never reached a static presentation of theology.  That is his view of theology is closer to the perspective one has in the sciences.  (Although in the 19th century the apparent stability of mechanics in physics made one think all that left were details rather than significant reconfigurations)</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34301</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34301</guid>
		<description>David, thanks so much for your comment. This is a very new field for me (ie the body), so I really appreciate the critique of La Fleur and the suggestions of other good books. Your thoughts on JS are also very helpful.

Your wisdom is always more than welcome here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, thanks so much for your comment. This is a very new field for me (ie the body), so I really appreciate the critique of La Fleur and the suggestions of other good books. Your thoughts on JS are also very helpful.</p>
<p>Your wisdom is always more than welcome here.</p>
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		<title>By: David Howlett</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34286</link>
		<dc:creator>David Howlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34286</guid>
		<description>Hi Ben,

I just saw this article--very interesting post! My first comps area was on religion and the body in Christianity. R. Marie Griffiths&#039;s 2004 work, Born Again Bodies, briefly covers the era of Smith&#039;s life as it speeds towards connections between evangelicals and New Thought adherents in the late 19th century. It&#039;s a fantastic read! Also, Sarah Coakley&#039;s introduction to her edited work Religion and the Body (Oxford UP, 1997?)is, in my opinion, the best summary on the religion and the body questions out there. I was a bit miffed with some of LeFleur&#039;s characterizations of Christianity&#039;s relationship to the body in his short piece that you quoted--he sees it far too dualistically and negatively than other authors I have read (such as Caroline Walker Bynum). Le Fleur does not specialize in Christianity and studies Buddhism in Asia. His work is understandably not nuanced when he talks about another tradition. (Personally, I think that Christianity quickly becomes the whipping boy on the question of the body for scholars of other traditions to take out their fury.)

In my opinion, Joseph is not so much a systematizer as he is an artist who specializes in bricolage. In some ways, Joseph is like an emotion-driven Luther as opposed to a systematic Calvin. (However, Luther, who is not known as a systematic thinker, is far more consistent than Joseph--reflecting their different trainings, too.) This is just an analogy that personally helps me give Joseph some slack when his thoughts tend to get a bit disjointed or even, well, speculative. This must be my Community of Christ bias coming through, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>I just saw this article&#8211;very interesting post! My first comps area was on religion and the body in Christianity. R. Marie Griffiths&#8217;s 2004 work, Born Again Bodies, briefly covers the era of Smith&#8217;s life as it speeds towards connections between evangelicals and New Thought adherents in the late 19th century. It&#8217;s a fantastic read! Also, Sarah Coakley&#8217;s introduction to her edited work Religion and the Body (Oxford UP, 1997?)is, in my opinion, the best summary on the religion and the body questions out there. I was a bit miffed with some of LeFleur&#8217;s characterizations of Christianity&#8217;s relationship to the body in his short piece that you quoted&#8211;he sees it far too dualistically and negatively than other authors I have read (such as Caroline Walker Bynum). Le Fleur does not specialize in Christianity and studies Buddhism in Asia. His work is understandably not nuanced when he talks about another tradition. (Personally, I think that Christianity quickly becomes the whipping boy on the question of the body for scholars of other traditions to take out their fury.)</p>
<p>In my opinion, Joseph is not so much a systematizer as he is an artist who specializes in bricolage. In some ways, Joseph is like an emotion-driven Luther as opposed to a systematic Calvin. (However, Luther, who is not known as a systematic thinker, is far more consistent than Joseph&#8211;reflecting their different trainings, too.) This is just an analogy that personally helps me give Joseph some slack when his thoughts tend to get a bit disjointed or even, well, speculative. This must be my Community of Christ bias coming through, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34219</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34219</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;From Dr. Good’s popular Book of Nature (1826, with some twenty editions in England and America before 1840, including editions for children) . . .&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Note that this view of spirits as analogous to a gas rather than really immaterial goes back to the early Renaissance.  I&#039;ve not done enough reading on the history of this but philosophers like Telesio were into that.  And of course in popular speech immaterial spirits were actually interpreted in a material way.  (Think of how ghosts are conceived - it&#039;s as a vaporous substance rather than being truly without place)

My guess is that some of the rediscovery of the Stoics aided here but I don&#039;t know for sure.  Typically the Stoics were looked to just for moral theory but they had some interesting physics and ontology as well.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;FWIW, I’d advise staying away from “the Greeks.” I’ve spent years on precisely the topic of the body in antiquity, and it is huge.  Besides, there is little payout historically for you.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think this right.  That said there is plenty of indirect influence on Joseph from more esoteric aspects of the Renaissance.  (i.e. in Masonry)  I spent a few years looking into this but even there one doesn&#039;t find as much as one would hope.  

Interestingly where I think the most compelling parallels arise is in cognitive science analyzing people intuitive approaches to things and how spirits are naturally conceived of.  In a sense Joseph returns to a more natural cognitive view of spirits as opposed to the formal theology that had developed over the centuries.  I suspect one could fruitfully argue that Joseph is doing phenomenology of a sort rather than traditional theology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>From Dr. Good’s popular Book of Nature (1826, with some twenty editions in England and America before 1840, including editions for children) . . .</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Note that this view of spirits as analogous to a gas rather than really immaterial goes back to the early Renaissance.  I&#8217;ve not done enough reading on the history of this but philosophers like Telesio were into that.  And of course in popular speech immaterial spirits were actually interpreted in a material way.  (Think of how ghosts are conceived &#8211; it&#8217;s as a vaporous substance rather than being truly without place)</p>
<p>My guess is that some of the rediscovery of the Stoics aided here but I don&#8217;t know for sure.  Typically the Stoics were looked to just for moral theory but they had some interesting physics and ontology as well.</p>
<blockquote><p><i>FWIW, I’d advise staying away from “the Greeks.” I’ve spent years on precisely the topic of the body in antiquity, and it is huge.  Besides, there is little payout historically for you.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>I think this right.  That said there is plenty of indirect influence on Joseph from more esoteric aspects of the Renaissance.  (i.e. in Masonry)  I spent a few years looking into this but even there one doesn&#8217;t find as much as one would hope.  </p>
<p>Interestingly where I think the most compelling parallels arise is in cognitive science analyzing people intuitive approaches to things and how spirits are naturally conceived of.  In a sense Joseph returns to a more natural cognitive view of spirits as opposed to the formal theology that had developed over the centuries.  I suspect one could fruitfully argue that Joseph is doing phenomenology of a sort rather than traditional theology.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34217</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34217</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;It seems to me that I have heard a lot of modern Mormons contrast JS’s corporeal theology against Greek conceptions.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Unfortunately most of these discussions take a rather naive view of Greek conceptions.  Rather what is usually a problem is the conception of Christian philosophy during the medieval era which persisted into the modern era via its transformation by Descartes (whose concept of mind is actually quite close in many ways to Aquinas&#039; substantial souls).

The Greek conceptions were, in my view, much more palatable.  Especially the Greek materialists such as the Stoics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>It seems to me that I have heard a lot of modern Mormons contrast JS’s corporeal theology against Greek conceptions.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Unfortunately most of these discussions take a rather naive view of Greek conceptions.  Rather what is usually a problem is the conception of Christian philosophy during the medieval era which persisted into the modern era via its transformation by Descartes (whose concept of mind is actually quite close in many ways to Aquinas&#8217; substantial souls).</p>
<p>The Greek conceptions were, in my view, much more palatable.  Especially the Greek materialists such as the Stoics.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph &#38; the Body : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34216</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph &#38; the Body : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34216</guid>
		<description>[...] Joseph Smith on the Body [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joseph Smith on the Body [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34153</link>
		<dc:creator>Smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34153</guid>
		<description>Ask taysom about his mha 09 paper. Looks to be quite good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ask taysom about his mha 09 paper. Looks to be quite good.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34150</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34150</guid>
		<description>TT: I&#039;m on pins and needles ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TT: I&#8217;m on pins and needles <img src='http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/joseph-smith-and-the-body-some-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-34147</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/?p=910#comment-34147</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the Confucianism paper was Mike Ing&#039;s and it&#039;s good--if Brian Birch weren&#039;t so nice, I&#039;d try to steal it :)

mmiles--agreed. This Republic... is harrowing and wonderful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the Confucianism paper was Mike Ing&#8217;s and it&#8217;s good&#8211;if Brian Birch weren&#8217;t so nice, I&#8217;d try to steal it <img src='http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>mmiles&#8211;agreed. This Republic&#8230; is harrowing and wonderful.</p>
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