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	<title>Comments on: Identifying with Romney? My Historiographical Rant Against Mormon Ethnicity</title>
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	<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/</link>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Juvenile Instructor Turns 2</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-50309</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Juvenile Instructor Turns 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-50309</guid>
		<description>[...] (and degree sought): Texas Christian University (PhD, History) Favorite JI post: Joel&#8217;s Identifying with Romney? My Historiographical Rant Against Mormon Ethnicity Research Interests: racial ideologies and Mormonism (curse of Canaan); Native Americans; American [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (and degree sought): Texas Christian University (PhD, History) Favorite JI post: Joel&#8217;s Identifying with Romney? My Historiographical Rant Against Mormon Ethnicity Research Interests: racial ideologies and Mormonism (curse of Canaan); Native Americans; American [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; Examining Mormon Ethnicity (Part II)</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-23641</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; Examining Mormon Ethnicity (Part II)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-23641</guid>
		<description>[...] realized after thinking about my previous post that I did not really summarize what scholars mean by defining Mormons as an &#8220;ethnic&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] realized after thinking about my previous post that I did not really summarize what scholars mean by defining Mormons as an &#8220;ethnic&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-22011</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-22011</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I think that most scholars who utilize the ethnicity paradigm when studying sects without seriously considering some of the problems with the term. I think that ethnicity is used too much as a noun--something tangible. I will address this question more in future posts.

Clark,

Are you talking about Utah now, or the country in general? By the two, do you mean Lamarckian conceptions of race and the curse of Ham? What examples are you thinking about? I could also imagine a scenario where believing scientists such as Talmage or Widtsoe tried to reconcile the two ideas. To make any better observations, I would need to see the texts you are talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I think that most scholars who utilize the ethnicity paradigm when studying sects without seriously considering some of the problems with the term. I think that ethnicity is used too much as a noun&#8211;something tangible. I will address this question more in future posts.</p>
<p>Clark,</p>
<p>Are you talking about Utah now, or the country in general? By the two, do you mean Lamarckian conceptions of race and the curse of Ham? What examples are you thinking about? I could also imagine a scenario where believing scientists such as Talmage or Widtsoe tried to reconcile the two ideas. To make any better observations, I would need to see the texts you are talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21999</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-21999</guid>
		<description>Interesting Joel since the accounts from the very early 20th century I can think of offhand seem to be blurring the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting Joel since the accounts from the very early 20th century I can think of offhand seem to be blurring the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Fleming</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21980</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joel,

All very interesting, particularly since I&#039;m taking a seminar on this topic right now.  In the little bit of reading I&#039;ve done on this I have noticed that some scholars apply ethnicity to sects (Quakers, Mennonites, Dunkers); that is they list them as ethnicities.  Keeping in mind that sectarianism is the religious act of a group setting themselves apart from the larger community, or choosing to have an &quot;other&quot; or outsider status (Mormons are definitely a sect).  Are you arguing against the term generally?  What term of group identity ought to be applied to sects like Mormons?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel,</p>
<p>All very interesting, particularly since I&#8217;m taking a seminar on this topic right now.  In the little bit of reading I&#8217;ve done on this I have noticed that some scholars apply ethnicity to sects (Quakers, Mennonites, Dunkers); that is they list them as ethnicities.  Keeping in mind that sectarianism is the religious act of a group setting themselves apart from the larger community, or choosing to have an &#8220;other&#8221; or outsider status (Mormons are definitely a sect).  Are you arguing against the term generally?  What term of group identity ought to be applied to sects like Mormons?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21909</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-21909</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have anything to add, but I very much enjoyed this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have anything to add, but I very much enjoyed this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21906</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Clark,

I don&#039;t know about Utah, we might have to hear from one of our Utah experts on that one, but the historical literature seems to argue that Lamarck&#039;s ideas were fairly ubiquitous as far as scientific conceptions of race are concerned. The literature also argues that the often religious conceptions of race based on myths like the Curse of Ham were developed, in part, to compete against multiple origins theories like that of Lamarck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about Utah, we might have to hear from one of our Utah experts on that one, but the historical literature seems to argue that Lamarck&#8217;s ideas were fairly ubiquitous as far as scientific conceptions of race are concerned. The literature also argues that the often religious conceptions of race based on myths like the Curse of Ham were developed, in part, to compete against multiple origins theories like that of Lamarck.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21898</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-21898</guid>
		<description>Were Lamarckian conceptions that widely discussed in 19th century Utah Joel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Were Lamarckian conceptions that widely discussed in 19th century Utah Joel?</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21865</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-21865</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Joel. You&#039;ve really helped tease out and answer some of the questions I&#039;ve had regarding the Mormonism=ethnicity thesis. I look forward to the future posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this, Joel. You&#8217;ve really helped tease out and answer some of the questions I&#8217;ve had regarding the Mormonism=ethnicity thesis. I look forward to the future posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/comment-page-1/#comment-21858</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/identifying-with-romney-my-historiographical-rant-against-mormon-ethnicity/#comment-21858</guid>
		<description>Clark,

I guess it is possible that O&#039;Dea was thinking about Mormon conceptions of themselves as a chosen race, but I doubt it. By the way, I think that conceptions of a Mormon race at the turn of the century probably are referential to Lamarckian conceptions of the environmental factors of biological race. They were conceiving their ideas in a time when people thought of race as something that resulted not only from long term origins of humanity but also from inherited adaptions to a particular environment. 

O&#039;Dea, in my opinion, was trying to explain a powerful contemporary group identity that he could see among the Mormons by dipping into the Sociological literature on ethnicity which had become academically powerful when he was writing his narrative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,</p>
<p>I guess it is possible that O&#8217;Dea was thinking about Mormon conceptions of themselves as a chosen race, but I doubt it. By the way, I think that conceptions of a Mormon race at the turn of the century probably are referential to Lamarckian conceptions of the environmental factors of biological race. They were conceiving their ideas in a time when people thought of race as something that resulted not only from long term origins of humanity but also from inherited adaptions to a particular environment. </p>
<p>O&#8217;Dea, in my opinion, was trying to explain a powerful contemporary group identity that he could see among the Mormons by dipping into the Sociological literature on ethnicity which had become academically powerful when he was writing his narrative.</p>
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