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	<title>Comments on: How Wide the Divide? Historicity and the Priesthood Ban</title>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; Teaching About the Priesthood Ban and Official Declaration 2 in Sunday School</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-54707</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; Teaching About the Priesthood Ban and Official Declaration 2 in Sunday School</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] How Wide The Divide? Historicity and the Priesthood Ban [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How Wide The Divide? Historicity and the Priesthood Ban [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; From the Archives: Posts You Might Have Missed, June-August 2008</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-40247</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; From the Archives: Posts You Might Have Missed, June-August 2008</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] How Wide The Divide? Historicity and the Priesthood Ban [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How Wide The Divide? Historicity and the Priesthood Ban [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; Adjusting the Chemistry of the Gold Plates</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9172</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; Adjusting the Chemistry of the Gold Plates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/#comment-9172</guid>
		<description>[...] hermeneutical strategies for bringing together revealed and scholarly understandings. (See also: Joel&#8217;s post from Friday.) The Gold Plates&#8217; putative chemical composition provides an example of revealed-subsequently [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] hermeneutical strategies for bringing together revealed and scholarly understandings. (See also: Joel&#8217;s post from Friday.) The Gold Plates&#8217; putative chemical composition provides an example of revealed-subsequently [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret Young</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9143</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Spot on, David.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spot on, David.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9142</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree with Margaret--there has not been a repudiation of prior teachings on the ban--with one exception.  The revelation itself was a repudiation of Brigham Young&#039;s teaching, reiterated in the 1949 First Presidency statement, that the ban would not be lifted until  everyone else was  given the priesthood, which many people interpreted to mean the millennium.  See http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neitherappx.htm (&quot;And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.&quot;)

As I have stated elsewhere, I think some of the 12 or FP still subscribe to some of the teachings underlying the past practice--curse of Cain, tie to premortality, etc....  I think that many do not.  I do not think there will be any repudiation or reconfirmation of those prior teachings until there is unanimity among the Brethren (just as that is what it took for the practive to be changed in 1978 through a revelation that all of them received after lots of spade work by President Kimball).

I do not expect such a repudiation until the passing of most of the generation that spent much of their lives defending the ban.  In the meantime, I am grateful that the Church no longer officially or explicitly backs any of those prior teachings or doctrines, and that I and others can fell free to reject them without engangering our church standing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Margaret&#8211;there has not been a repudiation of prior teachings on the ban&#8211;with one exception.  The revelation itself was a repudiation of Brigham Young&#8217;s teaching, reiterated in the 1949 First Presidency statement, that the ban would not be lifted until  everyone else was  given the priesthood, which many people interpreted to mean the millennium.  See <a href="http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neitherappx.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neitherappx.htm</a> (&#8220;And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.&#8221;)</p>
<p>As I have stated elsewhere, I think some of the 12 or FP still subscribe to some of the teachings underlying the past practice&#8211;curse of Cain, tie to premortality, etc&#8230;.  I think that many do not.  I do not think there will be any repudiation or reconfirmation of those prior teachings until there is unanimity among the Brethren (just as that is what it took for the practive to be changed in 1978 through a revelation that all of them received after lots of spade work by President Kimball).</p>
<p>I do not expect such a repudiation until the passing of most of the generation that spent much of their lives defending the ban.  In the meantime, I am grateful that the Church no longer officially or explicitly backs any of those prior teachings or doctrines, and that I and others can fell free to reject them without engangering our church standing.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9099</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/#comment-9099</guid>
		<description>Just in case it isn&#039;t clear from my previous comment, I think it is a perfectly legitimate position to say that God must have been involved someway in the ban.  But the starting point for that discussion isn&#039;t the origin of the ban.  Once we acknowledge the overt racism which our leaders enunciated in plain English as the origin of the ban, then we can get to the question of why God allowed it to be perpetuated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case it isn&#8217;t clear from my previous comment, I think it is a perfectly legitimate position to say that God must have been involved someway in the ban.  But the starting point for that discussion isn&#8217;t the origin of the ban.  Once we acknowledge the overt racism which our leaders enunciated in plain English as the origin of the ban, then we can get to the question of why God allowed it to be perpetuated.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9098</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>On the issue of copyright, I&#039;m not convinced that is the answer.  Doesn&#039;t the tabernacle choir sing pieces all the time which are not in the hymnal and which are broadcast?  Although I am not certain, I would be astonished if the choir has never sung &lt;em&gt;How Great Thou Art &lt;/em&gt;in a broadcast.

Joel, I appreciate this, and I think the way you have framed the discussion is more or less correct.  If I may, I&#039;d like to offer a couple of suggestions.

First, I thikn we need to ask the right question.  It is not a matter of finding out how the ban started.  We &lt;em&gt;know&lt;/em&gt; how it started; those who placed restrictions on early black members have told us in their own words why they did it, and the record is clear enough, at least to me.  The real question is:  Why did it continue?  Why didn&#039;t God correct it, or how could our leaders have been so out of touch?  Or were they?  Those are the really interesting questions, but we never get to them, because we still haven&#039;t faced up to the way the ban started.  Whenever we start along that line of inquiry, someone can be relied upon to say that we don&#039;t really know, and besides, everything has changed now, and for heaven&#039;s sake, can&#039;t we just be happy and move on?  The reason the questions don&#039;t go away is because we continue to try to avoid them.

I have a great deal of sympathy with the idea advanced here by several commenters that we need to be loyal to one another and to our leaders, and to not create stumbling blocks for one another.  However, we need to be aware that when we avoid the hard questions, we are creating stumbling blocks for members and investigators of African descent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the issue of copyright, I&#8217;m not convinced that is the answer.  Doesn&#8217;t the tabernacle choir sing pieces all the time which are not in the hymnal and which are broadcast?  Although I am not certain, I would be astonished if the choir has never sung <em>How Great Thou Art </em>in a broadcast.</p>
<p>Joel, I appreciate this, and I think the way you have framed the discussion is more or less correct.  If I may, I&#8217;d like to offer a couple of suggestions.</p>
<p>First, I thikn we need to ask the right question.  It is not a matter of finding out how the ban started.  We <em>know</em> how it started; those who placed restrictions on early black members have told us in their own words why they did it, and the record is clear enough, at least to me.  The real question is:  Why did it continue?  Why didn&#8217;t God correct it, or how could our leaders have been so out of touch?  Or were they?  Those are the really interesting questions, but we never get to them, because we still haven&#8217;t faced up to the way the ban started.  Whenever we start along that line of inquiry, someone can be relied upon to say that we don&#8217;t really know, and besides, everything has changed now, and for heaven&#8217;s sake, can&#8217;t we just be happy and move on?  The reason the questions don&#8217;t go away is because we continue to try to avoid them.</p>
<p>I have a great deal of sympathy with the idea advanced here by several commenters that we need to be loyal to one another and to our leaders, and to not create stumbling blocks for one another.  However, we need to be aware that when we avoid the hard questions, we are creating stumbling blocks for members and investigators of African descent.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret Young</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9094</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/#comment-9094</guid>
		<description>Ray--I wish the explanations had been repudiated, but they have not.  I know you count Elder McConkie&#039;s statement as a repudiation, but if you look at the entire statement and its framing, and then if you look at what he KEPT in _Mormon Doctrine_ in 1979 when he added details about the priesthood revelation (see &quot;races of men&quot; and &quot;caste system&quot;), it&#039;s clear that he still believed some awful stuff--and that he himself hadn&#039;t &quot;forgotten&quot; what he or George Q. Cannon &quot;or whomsoever&quot;. had said.  Elder McConkie&#039;s statement in 1978 had strong limitations.  I&#039;ve quoted it myself, but I always feel somewhat guilty when I do, because I recognize that it&#039;s not everything I might suggest it is.  

There are those among the hierarchy who would themselves like a very clear statement repudiating the idea of the curse of Cain/Canaan, and of any kind of pre-mortal &quot;judgment&quot; which showed God&#039;s disapproval through race. I believe the day will come when such a statement will be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray&#8211;I wish the explanations had been repudiated, but they have not.  I know you count Elder McConkie&#8217;s statement as a repudiation, but if you look at the entire statement and its framing, and then if you look at what he KEPT in _Mormon Doctrine_ in 1979 when he added details about the priesthood revelation (see &#8220;races of men&#8221; and &#8220;caste system&#8221;), it&#8217;s clear that he still believed some awful stuff&#8211;and that he himself hadn&#8217;t &#8220;forgotten&#8221; what he or George Q. Cannon &#8220;or whomsoever&#8221;. had said.  Elder McConkie&#8217;s statement in 1978 had strong limitations.  I&#8217;ve quoted it myself, but I always feel somewhat guilty when I do, because I recognize that it&#8217;s not everything I might suggest it is.  </p>
<p>There are those among the hierarchy who would themselves like a very clear statement repudiating the idea of the curse of Cain/Canaan, and of any kind of pre-mortal &#8220;judgment&#8221; which showed God&#8217;s disapproval through race. I believe the day will come when such a statement will be made.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9092</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/#comment-9092</guid>
		<description>&quot;Now we see through a glass, darkly.&quot;  

The explanations have been repudiated; I hope that continues actively.  Since I can think of multiple reasons from multiple perspectives for the implementation, &quot;I don&#039;t know&quot; seems like all that can be said with authority.  

Sometimes, the greatest of these really is charity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now we see through a glass, darkly.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The explanations have been repudiated; I hope that continues actively.  Since I can think of multiple reasons from multiple perspectives for the implementation, &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; seems like all that can be said with authority.  </p>
<p>Sometimes, the greatest of these really is charity.</p>
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		<title>By: bfwebster</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-9090</link>
		<dc:creator>bfwebster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/how-wide-the-divide-historicity-and-the-priesthood-ban/#comment-9090</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I’d bet a dozen doughnuts that there is a copyright restriction on the broadcast performance of that hymn, and that the omission is nothing more sinister than not [yet?] having taken care of legal permissions and royalty payments.

Now if we only had a Mormon blogging lawyer to offer an expert’s opinion …&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not a lawyer, but I do serve regularly as an expert witness in intellectual property lawsuits (involving information technology), and I suspect you&#039;re dead on. &lt;a href=&quot;http://musicians.about.com/od/beingamusician/p/performingright.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Broadcast IP issues&lt;/a&gt; are among the trickiest; you don&#039;t want to infringe and then get hit after the fact with a demand for royalties, particularly if your broadcast is going out to (potentially) millions of homes via satellite. 

So, no, there&#039;s no reason to look for some deep significance that &quot;How Great Thou Art&quot; was cut from the rebroadcast other than, as Ardis noted (good catch, btw!), copyright and royalty issues.   ..bruce..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I’d bet a dozen doughnuts that there is a copyright restriction on the broadcast performance of that hymn, and that the omission is nothing more sinister than not [yet?] having taken care of legal permissions and royalty payments.</p>
<p>Now if we only had a Mormon blogging lawyer to offer an expert’s opinion …</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not a lawyer, but I do serve regularly as an expert witness in intellectual property lawsuits (involving information technology), and I suspect you&#8217;re dead on. <a href="http://musicians.about.com/od/beingamusician/p/performingright.htm" rel="nofollow">Broadcast IP issues</a> are among the trickiest; you don&#8217;t want to infringe and then get hit after the fact with a demand for royalties, particularly if your broadcast is going out to (potentially) millions of homes via satellite. </p>
<p>So, no, there&#8217;s no reason to look for some deep significance that &#8220;How Great Thou Art&#8221; was cut from the rebroadcast other than, as Ardis noted (good catch, btw!), copyright and royalty issues.   ..bruce..</p>
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