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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post: Biblical Precedent and the Succession Crisis</title>
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		<title>By: Jettboy</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2193</link>
		<dc:creator>Jettboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 15:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;I would imagine the Strangites felt they were following the Joseph Smith model which was following the OT and the NT model. Joseph Smith, after all was the prophet (OT) who called 12 (NT) and 70 (OT? and NT).&quot;

This is a strange comment considering some modern studies of the New Testament. According to these studies, Jesus was setting up an Old Testament pattern similar to Moses. His &quot;prophetood&quot; was, using the Sermon on the Mount as an example, as a new lawgiver. His calling of the Twelve was a reflection of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, with the Seventy as a sort of assistant to the Twelve similar to the same organization Moses set up. In other words, the Latter-day Saints were to the NT as Jesus was to the OT pattern identification.

By the way, Hyde&#039;s explanation might explain why there was arguably never a First Presidency in the NT. Jesus was the head of the Church in a way that Joseph Smith never was. It begs the question, if there never was a Great Apostacy then would there ever have been a prophet position? Joseph&#039;s position in the Latter Days vs. Jesus&#039; in the Meridian might explain why monumental revelation hasn&#039;t been part of the current office. Just as Jesus was the Great Master and Finisher of our faith, Joseph Smith was the great Restorer and Seer that prepared the way for Jesus&#039; evenatual return. They represent a Nexis that those who follow simply support. Perhaps there was somthing to Rigdon&#039;s argument that there would be a &quot;gaurdian&quot; rather than a prophetic mantle for the leadership after Joseph Smith&#039;s death. On the other hand, I think G-d might have allowed for several directions the leadership organization could have gone to keep the Falling Away from happeninf again.

Just some thoughts and conjectures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would imagine the Strangites felt they were following the Joseph Smith model which was following the OT and the NT model. Joseph Smith, after all was the prophet (OT) who called 12 (NT) and 70 (OT? and NT).&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a strange comment considering some modern studies of the New Testament. According to these studies, Jesus was setting up an Old Testament pattern similar to Moses. His &#8220;prophetood&#8221; was, using the Sermon on the Mount as an example, as a new lawgiver. His calling of the Twelve was a reflection of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, with the Seventy as a sort of assistant to the Twelve similar to the same organization Moses set up. In other words, the Latter-day Saints were to the NT as Jesus was to the OT pattern identification.</p>
<p>By the way, Hyde&#8217;s explanation might explain why there was arguably never a First Presidency in the NT. Jesus was the head of the Church in a way that Joseph Smith never was. It begs the question, if there never was a Great Apostacy then would there ever have been a prophet position? Joseph&#8217;s position in the Latter Days vs. Jesus&#8217; in the Meridian might explain why monumental revelation hasn&#8217;t been part of the current office. Just as Jesus was the Great Master and Finisher of our faith, Joseph Smith was the great Restorer and Seer that prepared the way for Jesus&#8217; evenatual return. They represent a Nexis that those who follow simply support. Perhaps there was somthing to Rigdon&#8217;s argument that there would be a &#8220;gaurdian&#8221; rather than a prophetic mantle for the leadership after Joseph Smith&#8217;s death. On the other hand, I think G-d might have allowed for several directions the leadership organization could have gone to keep the Falling Away from happeninf again.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts and conjectures.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Jensen</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2183</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 04:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Clark, I absolutely agree that there is plenty of work to be done on the succession crisis. An intellectual historian (or theologian, as you indicate) could really sink her or his teeth into this, and many other topics--the field in Mormon intellectual history is, to borrow from a scriptural term, white and ready to harvest. 

You make an important point about Bergera&#039;s work. More analysis would have improved his work (although I think a book full of quotations from primary sources is better than some of the other material out there). Unfortunately, his is one of the few works dealing with this issue (the discussion among the quorum of the twelve in December 1847), so I will have to continue to direct people to his work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, I absolutely agree that there is plenty of work to be done on the succession crisis. An intellectual historian (or theologian, as you indicate) could really sink her or his teeth into this, and many other topics&#8211;the field in Mormon intellectual history is, to borrow from a scriptural term, white and ready to harvest. </p>
<p>You make an important point about Bergera&#8217;s work. More analysis would have improved his work (although I think a book full of quotations from primary sources is better than some of the other material out there). Unfortunately, his is one of the few works dealing with this issue (the discussion among the quorum of the twelve in December 1847), so I will have to continue to direct people to his work.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2177</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To be fair though, one problem is that most of the theological issues weren&#039;t resolved.  What happened tended to create theology as much as anything.  So I&#039;m certainly not suggesting the  historian&#039;s approach is incorrect.  I do think more treatment of the &lt;i&gt;ideas&lt;/i&gt; could be useful.

There&#039;s still a lot of work to do on the succession crisis (IMO).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair though, one problem is that most of the theological issues weren&#8217;t resolved.  What happened tended to create theology as much as anything.  So I&#8217;m certainly not suggesting the  historian&#8217;s approach is incorrect.  I do think more treatment of the <i>ideas</i> could be useful.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s still a lot of work to do on the succession crisis (IMO).</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2176</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robin, Bergera&#039;s book is mainly just quotations with unfortunately little really in depth analysis.   He really doesn&#039;t get much into the succession crisis much either.  

The big problem is that there are a lot of &lt;i&gt;theological&lt;/i&gt; issues at play and those tend to get neglected a tad too much.  (IMO)  I&#039;m not saying all historians neglect theological assertions.  However the way a historian approaches such matter and the way a philosopher, lawyer or theologian does often is quite different.  (And I think Bergera&#039;s book, which tends to provide lots of quote but with little theological analysis is an example of this)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, Bergera&#8217;s book is mainly just quotations with unfortunately little really in depth analysis.   He really doesn&#8217;t get much into the succession crisis much either.  </p>
<p>The big problem is that there are a lot of <i>theological</i> issues at play and those tend to get neglected a tad too much.  (IMO)  I&#8217;m not saying all historians neglect theological assertions.  However the way a historian approaches such matter and the way a philosopher, lawyer or theologian does often is quite different.  (And I think Bergera&#8217;s book, which tends to provide lots of quote but with little theological analysis is an example of this)</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Jensen</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2172</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ben, while I don&#039;t have it front of me, Bergera&#039;s book &lt;em&gt;Conflict in the Quorum&lt;/em&gt; discusses the various difficulties surrounding Brigham Young&#039;s appointment--certainly worth the read. Ron Esplin has also done some work on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, while I don&#8217;t have it front of me, Bergera&#8217;s book <em>Conflict in the Quorum</em> discusses the various difficulties surrounding Brigham Young&#8217;s appointment&#8211;certainly worth the read. Ron Esplin has also done some work on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2170</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robin: Very interesting. I wonder if this line of thinking caused any problems a few years later when Brigham decided to reorganize the First Presidency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin: Very interesting. I wonder if this line of thinking caused any problems a few years later when Brigham decided to reorganize the First Presidency.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2167</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This really is a great insight.  Thanks for taking the time to share it.  I can see how this would be a natural argument, but as has been noted, the idea of a presiding successor was also quite puissant and compelling.  I love all the various thoughts and tracks that the Saints worked their way through during this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This really is a great insight.  Thanks for taking the time to share it.  I can see how this would be a natural argument, but as has been noted, the idea of a presiding successor was also quite puissant and compelling.  I love all the various thoughts and tracks that the Saints worked their way through during this time.</p>
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		<title>By: David G.</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2162</link>
		<dc:creator>David G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good point about JS&#039;s model being a hybrid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point about JS&#8217;s model being a hybrid.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Jensen</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2161</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would imagine the Strangites felt they were following the Joseph Smith model which was following the OT and the NT model. Joseph Smith, after all was the prophet (OT) who called 12 (NT) and 70 (OT? and NT).

Strang quickly discouraged the calling of the &quot;Brighamites&quot; the &quot;twelveites&quot;. The name &quot;twelveites&quot;, after all, would fit the Strangites, which also had twelve apostles. In fact, Strang probably duplicated Joseph Smith&#039;s organization better than any other Mormon group before Brigham Young became the president--not that there were that many before late 1847.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would imagine the Strangites felt they were following the Joseph Smith model which was following the OT and the NT model. Joseph Smith, after all was the prophet (OT) who called 12 (NT) and 70 (OT? and NT).</p>
<p>Strang quickly discouraged the calling of the &#8220;Brighamites&#8221; the &#8220;twelveites&#8221;. The name &#8220;twelveites&#8221;, after all, would fit the Strangites, which also had twelve apostles. In fact, Strang probably duplicated Joseph Smith&#8217;s organization better than any other Mormon group before Brigham Young became the president&#8211;not that there were that many before late 1847.</p>
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		<title>By: David G.</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/guest-post-biblical-precedent-and-the-succession-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2160</link>
		<dc:creator>David G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Would you say Robin that the Prophet model was more of an OT model, whereas the 12 model was more NT? Basically, what kind of community did the Strangites imagine?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you say Robin that the Prophet model was more of an OT model, whereas the 12 model was more NT? Basically, what kind of community did the Strangites imagine?</p>
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