Comments on: From the Archives: “The Impropriety of the Organization of Bands or Companies” http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ben http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-859 Ben Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:43:52 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-859 Nick: Very interesting. You have made me even more excited for your book. Nick: Very interesting. You have made me even more excited for your book.

]]> By: Nick Literski http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-856 Nick Literski Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:34:45 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-856 Ben, I have found considerable evidence of female Masonry (technically a misnomer, but I'll use the phrase for simplicity) in Nauvoo. Some of this was associated with the Relief Society, while some was not. What I have <b>not</b> found is any actual evidence of the reactions of non-Mormon Freemasons to this, if they even knew about it. I have the reactions of a dissident Mormon, who was not a Freemason, but that's as far as it goes. The closest I can get to any non-Mormon reaction would be by implication, as these orders appear to have been introduced in Nauvoo by a very prominent non-Mormon Freemason, who assisted the Nauvoo Lodge with instruction, etc. The idea that Freemasons were upset that Joseph administered temple ordinances to women is without support, so far as I have been able to find. For that matter, the idea that Freemasons accused Joseph of using their rituals as a basis for the temple ordinances is also without support. Only later, in Utah, did such accusations arise among Freemasons. Ben,
I have found considerable evidence of female Masonry (technically a misnomer, but I’ll use the phrase for simplicity) in Nauvoo. Some of this was associated with the Relief Society, while some was not. What I have not found is any actual evidence of the reactions of non-Mormon Freemasons to this, if they even knew about it. I have the reactions of a dissident Mormon, who was not a Freemason, but that’s as far as it goes. The closest I can get to any non-Mormon reaction would be by implication, as these orders appear to have been introduced in Nauvoo by a very prominent non-Mormon Freemason, who assisted the Nauvoo Lodge with instruction, etc.

The idea that Freemasons were upset that Joseph administered temple ordinances to women is without support, so far as I have been able to find. For that matter, the idea that Freemasons accused Joseph of using their rituals as a basis for the temple ordinances is also without support. Only later, in Utah, did such accusations arise among Freemasons.

]]> By: David Grua http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-855 David Grua Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:22:38 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-855 Keller (#10): The quote you provide is in JS's journal (<em>PJS</em> 2:206). As it is a vengeance oath, I don't see its immediate connection with either the Masons or the Danites, but rather see it coming out of early Mormon martyrological culture. I'll let Nick address any specific Masonic connections, but there is no evidence of Danites prior to June 1838. (#11) The vengeance motif in Nauvoo was more prevalent than just in the redress narratives. Again, I don't see a direct connection between Danite blood oaths and vengeance oaths. I may get a post up on vengeance in Nauvoo at some point in the future. Keller (#10): The quote you provide is in JS’s journal (PJS 2:206). As it is a vengeance oath, I don’t see its immediate connection with either the Masons or the Danites, but rather see it coming out of early Mormon martyrological culture. I’ll let Nick address any specific Masonic connections, but there is no evidence of Danites prior to June 1838.

(#11) The vengeance motif in Nauvoo was more prevalent than just in the redress narratives. Again, I don’t see a direct connection between Danite blood oaths and vengeance oaths. I may get a post up on vengeance in Nauvoo at some point in the future.

]]> By: Ben http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-854 Ben Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:01:38 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-854 Nick: Is there any support that one of the reasons the Freemasons were upset was they though Joseph allowed women into the secret rituals? Nick: Is there any support that one of the reasons the Freemasons were upset was they though Joseph allowed women into the secret rituals?

]]> By: Nick Literski http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-852 Nick Literski Wed, 05 Dec 2007 07:32:00 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-852 #9: It is certainly true that Freemasons were involved in the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. I do not feel that the evidence supports your theory at this time. Rather, Joseph himself incorporated many elements of Freemasonry into Mormonism---far beyond mere ritual similarities. Joseph's activities with regard to the Fraternity did create a situation in which angered prominent Freemasons, and was likely perceived as a threat to the Fraternity. As a result, the evidence I have found supports Brigham Young's 1860 statement that an actual conspiracy, involving prominent Freemasons, was instrumental in carrying out the murders. I presented on this topic at the 2005 John Whitmer Historical Association conference, but the book will be much more detailed than that 20 minute presentation allowed. #9:
It is certainly true that Freemasons were involved in the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. I do not feel that the evidence supports your theory at this time. Rather, Joseph himself incorporated many elements of Freemasonry into Mormonism—far beyond mere ritual similarities. Joseph’s activities with regard to the Fraternity did create a situation in which angered prominent Freemasons, and was likely perceived as a threat to the Fraternity. As a result, the evidence I have found supports Brigham Young’s 1860 statement that an actual conspiracy, involving prominent Freemasons, was instrumental in carrying out the murders. I presented on this topic at the 2005 John Whitmer Historical Association conference, but the book will be much more detailed than that 20 minute presentation allowed.

]]> By: Keller http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-850 Keller Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:27:51 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-850 Oh, one other comment that comes to mind is that Kathryn Daynes in her introductory chapter on Nauvoo proto-polygamy saw the oath bound nature of Joseph's inner circle in which he first introduced polygamy and temple ordinances to as an outgrowth of Joseph's quest for greater loyalty in the face of all Missouri betrayals (Hinkle, Phelps, etc.). That observation, if correct, stands in contrast to Liberty Jail sentiments. Oh, one other comment that comes to mind is that Kathryn Daynes in her introductory chapter on Nauvoo proto-polygamy saw the oath bound nature of Joseph’s inner circle in which he first introduced polygamy and temple ordinances to as an outgrowth of Joseph’s quest for greater loyalty in the face of all Missouri betrayals (Hinkle, Phelps, etc.). That observation, if correct, stands in contrast to Liberty Jail sentiments.

]]> By: Keller http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-849 Keller Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:21:14 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-849 Another thought that occurs to me that after Joseph was released from Liberty Jail, there seems to have been an immediate effort to relocate the vengeance motif back into efforts of petitioning the government and God for redress. The October 1839 conference made plans for Joseph, Sidney, and Elias Higbee to make a trip to Washington for that purpose. A formal resolution came out of the following April conference. <blockquote>Resolved, 10th. That Joseph Smith Jr., Sidney Rigdon, and Elias Higbee, the delegates appointed by this church, to visit the city of Washington to present our sufferings before the authorities of the nation, accept of the thanks of this meeting, for the prompt and efficient manner in which they have discharged their duty and that they be requested in the behalf of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, throughout the world, to continue to use their endeavors to obtain redress for a suffering people; and if all hope of obtaining satisfaction--for the injuries done us:--be entirely blasted, that they appeal our case to the court of heaven, believing, that the great Jehovah, who rules over the destiny of nations, and who notices the falling sparrow, will undoubtedly redress our wrongs, and ere long avenge us of our adversaries. </blockquote> Another thought that occurs to me that after Joseph was released from Liberty Jail, there seems to have been an immediate effort to relocate the vengeance motif back into efforts of petitioning the government and God for redress. The October 1839 conference made plans for Joseph, Sidney, and Elias Higbee to make a trip to Washington for that purpose. A formal resolution came out of the following April conference.

Resolved, 10th. That Joseph Smith Jr., Sidney Rigdon, and Elias Higbee, the delegates appointed by this church, to visit the city of Washington to present our sufferings before the authorities of the nation, accept of the thanks of this meeting, for the prompt and efficient manner in which they have discharged their duty and that they be requested in the behalf of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, throughout the world, to continue to use their endeavors to obtain redress for a suffering people; and if all hope of obtaining satisfaction–for the injuries done us:–be entirely blasted, that they appeal our case to the court of heaven, believing, that the great Jehovah, who rules over the destiny of nations, and who notices the falling sparrow, will undoubtedly redress our wrongs, and ere long avenge us of our adversaries.

]]> By: Keller http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-848 Keller Wed, 05 Dec 2007 06:11:54 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-848 Let me throw another quote into the mix, which I discovered while looking into the development of vengeance oaths and prayers for vengeance. This dates to March 30, 1836, during the Kirtland Temple dedication. The source claims to come from a Jesse Hitchcock record in Joseph Smith journal. <blockquote>The seventies are at liberty to go to Zion if they please or go wheresoever they will and preach the gospel and let the redemption of Zion be our object, and strive to affect it by sending up all the strength of the Lords house whereever we find them, and I want to enter into the following covenant, that if any more of our brethren are slain or driven from their lands in Missouri by the mob that we will give ourselves no rest until we are avenged of our enimies to the uttermost, this covenant was sealed unanimously by a hosanna and Amen. http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1834-38/30Mar36.html</blockquote> Any thought on what connection this might have to Danites or Masonry? Let me throw another quote into the mix, which I discovered while looking into the development of vengeance oaths and prayers for vengeance.

This dates to March 30, 1836, during the Kirtland Temple dedication. The source claims to come from a Jesse Hitchcock record in Joseph Smith journal.

The seventies are at liberty to go to Zion if they please or go wheresoever they will and preach the gospel and let the redemption of Zion be our object, and strive to affect it by sending up all the strength of the Lords house whereever we find them, and I want to enter into the following covenant, that if any more of our brethren are slain or driven from their lands in Missouri by the mob that we will give ourselves no rest until we are avenged of our enimies to the uttermost, this covenant was sealed unanimously by a hosanna and Amen.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1834-38/30Mar36.html

Any thought on what connection this might have to Danites or Masonry?

]]> By: Manuel http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-843 Manuel Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:56:11 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-843 Nick, This subject is fascinating to me and I am definitely looking forward to reading your book. The following statement is almost like a missing link I have been longing to find; yet I would like to hear comments about my understanding of the outcome of events: <blockquote><em>...Joseph made several abortive attempts to create this “Masonic restoration,” among which was the Danite movement. Existing records (...) describe initiation ceremonies which are clearly based on Masonic ritual. In addition, individual Danites who dropped from church activity later became involved with a non-Mormon vigilante group, also calling itself “Danites” with full recognition of the earlier Mormon usage. This group is even more readily recognized as Masonic in structure...</em></blockquote> You are probably familiar with the ongoing speculations among members of the Church that Masons were involved in the death of Joseph Smith because Joseph uttered the Masonic call of distress before being murdered by a mob. This is a very rough draft of how I see things in my mind (please criticize and comment, if you may): It seems to me that early Church leaders recognized the critical importance of certain moral principles if they were to establish the Kingdom of God at the level that Joseph Smith had envisioned when the church was first formed. Principles such as honor, commitment, brotherhood, and loyalty, among others, are effectively and distinctively taught to Freemasons by Freemasons. As church leaders witnessed and participated of the rites and teachings that instill these principles in Mason apprentices; Church leaders decided to "borrow" the Masonic process so that they too could instill these vital principles among other Church leaders and members, with the solemnity and effectiveness that Freemasons do. These rituals/practices may have even been used to give structure to organizations within the church, such as the Danites. Whether the Danites went rogue within the Church, or whether a group of dissenters formed an anti-Mormon group also called Danites; these Mormons/Ex-Mormons perpetuated the Masonic rituals to give structure to their organizations; thus we can say these Mormons/Ex-Mormons defiled the Masonic rite for their own purposes. So, an explanation for the “Masons killed Joseph Smith” hypothesis can be: Vigilante groups of Mormon origin used Masonic rites to give structure to their organizations; thus, these groups could possibly be responsible for vile acts that corroded the reputation of Freemasons, including the murder of Joseph Smith. Nick,

This subject is fascinating to me and I am definitely looking forward to reading your book.

The following statement is almost like a missing link I have been longing to find; yet I would like to hear comments about my understanding of the outcome of events:

…Joseph made several abortive attempts to create this “Masonic restoration,” among which was the Danite movement. Existing records (…) describe initiation ceremonies which are clearly based on Masonic ritual. In addition, individual Danites who dropped from church activity later became involved with a non-Mormon vigilante group, also calling itself “Danites” with full recognition of the earlier Mormon usage. This group is even more readily recognized as Masonic in structure…

You are probably familiar with the ongoing speculations among members of the Church that Masons were involved in the death of Joseph Smith because Joseph uttered the Masonic call of distress before being murdered by a mob.

This is a very rough draft of how I see things in my mind (please criticize and comment, if you may):

It seems to me that early Church leaders recognized the critical importance of certain moral principles if they were to establish the Kingdom of God at the level that Joseph Smith had envisioned when the church was first formed. Principles such as honor, commitment, brotherhood, and loyalty, among others, are effectively and distinctively taught to Freemasons by Freemasons. As church leaders witnessed and participated of the rites and teachings that instill these principles in Mason apprentices; Church leaders decided to “borrow” the Masonic process so that they too could instill these vital principles among other Church leaders and members, with the solemnity and effectiveness that Freemasons do.

These rituals/practices may have even been used to give structure to organizations within the church, such as the Danites. Whether the Danites went rogue within the Church, or whether a group of dissenters formed an anti-Mormon group also called Danites; these Mormons/Ex-Mormons perpetuated the Masonic rituals to give structure to their organizations; thus we can say these Mormons/Ex-Mormons defiled the Masonic rite for their own purposes.

So, an explanation for the “Masons killed Joseph Smith” hypothesis can be: Vigilante groups of Mormon origin used Masonic rites to give structure to their organizations; thus, these groups could possibly be responsible for vile acts that corroded the reputation of Freemasons, including the murder of Joseph Smith.

]]> By: Kathryn http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/comment-page-1/#comment-840 Kathryn Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:02:54 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-the-impropriety-of-the-organization-of-bands-or-companies/#comment-840 I am glad to see that you bring out the fact that there were two different groups referred to, when speaking about the Danites... many do not know this. My understanding is that the original groups intention was to protect the prophet -- plain and simple, whereas the later became the more destructive overall with their intentions, basically apostates, etc... and thus bring more negative scrutiny to Joseph and the church, of which seems to bring out more investigation today.... is this right or wrong? I was fascinated recently as I viewed, on the history channel, a recent program concerning exactly what you have just described. It was based on the symbolism of the U.S. dollar. They literally suggested in this program that the majority of the founding fathers can be traced to having connections in Masonry... although the actual records to verify these assumptions were burned during the civil war... ??? Sounds good, right? Anyway, it is quite convincing as they bring out the symbolism on our currency and the temple meaning, our government buildings and literally if you google Washington D.C. the layout of the city is ordered in a very particular way... tracing it to 'masonry' and then back to early egyptian temple worship.. Actually, I had never seen quite such good research on a regular t.v. program... as they actually did a respectable report on the pyramid, cornerstone and setting the kingdom in order when this Christ is to come... But they also laid out quite a conspiracy theory, that honestly I felt appeared as very passive aggressive toward the church, although they never once mentioned the church. They instead pointed to the masons... but we all know exactly where that leads... As they directly pointed to the Masons... they emphasized this new world order, marks, basically a new world economy, i.e. consecration, one ruler... take over the world, temples, signs, sacred but not secret... very very passive aggressive. After watching this, I felt it was literally propaganda directly toward the lds church... although never once did they mention the church. Interesting considering we are in the public eye politically at this time??? Enough rambling. lol I look forward to your book, as I believe more members should be informed as to what we as members are most likely looking at in our near futures... We have had a fairly nice season of rest, but I feel things are brewing and the media is quietly stirring a pot, that many do not realize is coming to a slow boil that will literally boil over, before we can get to the stove.... The adversary is quite masterful is his attempt to destroy and thwart the work of the last days... as this is truly quite artful how he is setting up that which is good... to appear as evil, underhanded and a threat to the safety and freedom of the world as we now know it! And who are the bad guys in his plan to ruin and take over the world? Amazing Is this not a major twist if we think about the war in heaven? Whoa! Fear is our worst enemy and there seems to be more of it out there than we realize. I am glad to see that you bring out the fact that there were two different groups referred to, when speaking about the Danites… many do not know this. My understanding is that the original groups intention was to protect the prophet — plain and simple, whereas the later became the more destructive overall with their intentions, basically apostates, etc… and thus bring more negative scrutiny to Joseph and the church, of which seems to bring out more investigation today…. is this right or wrong?

I was fascinated recently as I viewed, on the history channel, a recent program concerning exactly what you have just described. It was based on the symbolism of the U.S. dollar.

They literally suggested in this program that the majority of the founding fathers can be traced to having connections in Masonry… although the actual records to verify these assumptions were burned during the civil war… ??? Sounds good, right?

Anyway, it is quite convincing as they bring out the symbolism on our currency and the temple meaning, our government buildings and literally if you google Washington D.C. the layout of the city is ordered in a very particular way… tracing it to ‘masonry’ and then back to early egyptian temple worship..

Actually, I had never seen quite such good research on a regular t.v. program… as they actually did a respectable report on the pyramid, cornerstone and setting the kingdom in order when this Christ is to come…

But they also laid out quite a conspiracy theory, that honestly I felt appeared as very passive aggressive toward the church, although they never once mentioned the church. They instead pointed to the masons… but we all know exactly where that leads…

As they directly pointed to the Masons… they emphasized this new world order, marks, basically a new world economy, i.e. consecration, one ruler… take over the world, temples, signs, sacred but not secret… very very passive aggressive.

After watching this, I felt it was literally propaganda directly toward the lds church… although never once did they mention the church. Interesting considering we are in the public eye politically at this time???

Enough rambling. lol

I look forward to your book, as I believe more members should be informed as to what we as members are most likely looking at in our near futures… We have had a fairly nice season of rest, but I feel things are brewing and the media is quietly stirring a pot, that many do not realize is coming to a slow boil that will literally boil over, before we can get to the stove….

The adversary is quite masterful is his attempt to destroy and thwart the work of the last days… as this is truly quite artful how he is setting up that which is good… to appear as evil, underhanded and a threat to the safety and freedom of the world as we now know it!

And who are the bad guys in his plan to ruin and take over the world? Amazing

Is this not a major twist if we think about the war in heaven? Whoa!

Fear is our worst enemy and there seems to be more of it out there than we realize.

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