Comments on: From the Archives: John Wesley, the Latter-day Saint http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/ Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:53:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Juvenile Instructor » Thomas Jefferson, Statesman, President, Mormon? http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-5770 Juvenile Instructor » Thomas Jefferson, Statesman, President, Mormon? Wed, 14 May 2008 20:05:53 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-5770 [...] found this while going through the Times and Seasons, and it reminded me of Chris’s post on Mormonizing John Wesley. Apparently Mormon J. M. Grant (Jedediah, I presume) wrote a letter to the New York Messenger, and [...] […] found this while going through the Times and Seasons, and it reminded me of Chris’s post on Mormonizing John Wesley. Apparently Mormon J. M. Grant (Jedediah, I presume) wrote a letter to the New York Messenger, and […]

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-277 Christopher Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:34:56 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-277 I should also note that British Methodism underwent a similar transition, with similar splinter groups starting up there for the same reasons. The United Brethren (of Benbow Farm fame) that Wilford Woodruff found such success among, was a group that had its roots in primitive Methodism. I should also note that British Methodism underwent a similar transition, with similar splinter groups starting up there for the same reasons. The United Brethren (of Benbow Farm fame) that Wilford Woodruff found such success among, was a group that had its roots in primitive Methodism.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-276 Christopher Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:31:56 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-276 Again, thanks for the research, Justin. It is also important to note that American Methodism, beginning in the second decade of the 19th century and continuing until the mid 1830s, underwent what a refinement that moved them into the middle class as part of the Protestant establishment. While the Methodist Episcopal Church gradually moved away from their Wesleyan legacy of charismata, other Methodist groups, including Primitive Methodists (which John Taylor came from) and Reformed Methodists (Brigham Young's family's church), formed, placing an emphasis on what they considered pure Wesleyanism and true religion--specifically charismatic religious experience. Again, thanks for the research, Justin. It is also important to note that American Methodism, beginning in the second decade of the 19th century and continuing until the mid 1830s, underwent what a refinement that moved them into the middle class as part of the Protestant establishment.

While the Methodist Episcopal Church gradually moved away from their Wesleyan legacy of charismata, other Methodist groups, including Primitive Methodists (which John Taylor came from) and Reformed Methodists (Brigham Young’s family’s church), formed, placing an emphasis on what they considered pure Wesleyanism and true religion–specifically charismatic religious experience.

]]> By: Justin http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-275 Justin Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:23:18 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-275 I also came across a <a href="http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/11-15/15-07.htm" rel="nofollow">paper</a> written by a Wesleyan that grapples with Wesley's comments about the loss of the extraordinary gifts (see part 2 under "John Wesley's Theology" after footnote 18). I also came across a paper written by a Wesleyan that grapples with Wesley’s comments about the loss of the extraordinary gifts (see part 2 under “John Wesley’s Theology” after footnote 18).

]]> By: Justin http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-274 Justin Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:00:58 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-274 In that regard, I would note Wesley's introductory remarks which immediately precede the excerpt quoted by Pratt: "In the preceding verses [preceding 1 Cor. 12:31], St. Paul has been speaking of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost; such as healing the sick, prophesying (in the proper sense of the word; that is, foretelling things to come), speaking with strange tongues, such as the speaker had never learned, and the miraculous interpretation of tongues. And these gifts the Apostle allows to be desirable; yea, he exhorts the Corinthians, at least the teachers among them (to whom chiefly, if not solely, they were wont to be given in the first ages of the Church,) to covet them earnestly, that thereby they might be qualified to be more useful either to Christians or heathens. 'And yet,' says he, 'I show unto you a more excellent way;' far more desirable than all these put together, inasmuch as it will infallibly lead you to happiness both in this world and in the world to come; whereas you might have all those gifts, yea, in the highest degree, and yet be miserable both in time and eternity." In that regard, I would note Wesley’s introductory remarks which immediately precede the excerpt quoted by Pratt:

“In the preceding verses [preceding 1 Cor. 12:31], St. Paul has been speaking of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost; such as healing the sick, prophesying (in the proper sense of the word; that is, foretelling things to come), speaking with strange tongues, such as the speaker had never learned, and the miraculous interpretation of tongues. And these gifts the Apostle allows to be desirable; yea, he exhorts the Corinthians, at least the teachers among them (to whom chiefly, if not solely, they were wont to be given in the first ages of the Church,) to covet them earnestly, that thereby they might be qualified to be more useful either to Christians or heathens. ‘And yet,’ says he, ‘I show unto you a more excellent way;’ far more desirable than all these put together, inasmuch as it will infallibly lead you to happiness both in this world and in the world to come; whereas you might have all those gifts, yea, in the highest degree, and yet be miserable both in time and eternity.”

]]> By: J. Stapley http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-273 J. Stapley Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:49:52 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-273 This is a interesting excerpt and good discussion. Justin's comment is quite important. I think that what Wesley was talking about isn't what Mormon's perceived him to be talking about. One example is healing, where Mormon's viewed their rituals as valid and evidential charismata but methodists (and we have every reason to suspect that Wesley would have been in accord) viewed them as being very much outside of their tradition. This is a interesting excerpt and good discussion. Justin’s comment is quite important. I think that what Wesley was talking about isn’t what Mormon’s perceived him to be talking about. One example is healing, where Mormon’s viewed their rituals as valid and evidential charismata but methodists (and we have every reason to suspect that Wesley would have been in accord) viewed them as being very much outside of their tradition.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-272 Christopher Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:17:56 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-272 Jonathan, thanks for stopping by. Great questions and comments. I have no doubt John Wesley and others were sincere in their efforts to find and practice true religion. Justin, thanks for checking that out. You just cut down the time of my research for today significantly. Thanks. As a interesting follow-up, I found that the RLDS republished the sermon in <em>The True Latter Day Saints' Herald</em> in March 1863 (Vol. 4, No. 8), 177. Jonathan, thanks for stopping by. Great questions and comments. I have no doubt John Wesley and others were sincere in their efforts to find and practice true religion.

Justin, thanks for checking that out. You just cut down the time of my research for today significantly. Thanks.

As a interesting follow-up, I found that the RLDS republished the sermon in The True Latter Day Saints’ Herald in March 1863 (Vol. 4, No. 8), 177.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-271 Christopher Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:07:41 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-271 smb, I'll look forward to your MHA paper. I think a primary reason early Mormons felt such a connection with Wesley is because of his emphasis on the charismata. My proposed MHA paper will examine this in fuller detail. David, interesting parallel. Is there any literature on that that you know of? ben, thanks for the reference. I was unaware of it. Fascinating stuff. smb, I’ll look forward to your MHA paper. I think a primary reason early Mormons felt such a connection with Wesley is because of his emphasis on the charismata. My proposed MHA paper will examine this in fuller detail.

David, interesting parallel. Is there any literature on that that you know of?

ben, thanks for the reference. I was unaware of it. Fascinating stuff.

]]> By: David Grua http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-270 David Grua Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:28:07 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-270 As always, thanks for doing the legwork on this, Justin. As always, thanks for doing the legwork on this, Justin.

]]> By: Justin http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-269 Justin Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:20:51 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-john-wesley-the-latter-day-saint/#comment-269 I examined several editions of Wesley's sermons published before 1841 and found minor inconsistencies with Pratt's quotation. "It does not appear that the extraordinary gifts of the spirit..." reads "It does not appear that the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost..." in several editions of Wesley's sermons. "...faith on the earth" reads "faith upon earth" in several editions. "...vain imagination of promoting the Christian religion" reads "...vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby" in several editions. Pratt's quotation omits the end of the following sentence: "...honour upon the Christians in general; but in particular, upon the Christian clergy." (The quotation in the Millennial Star does end with a large space, possibly intended to mark the omission.) Punctuation also differs in places. "...as has vulgarly been supposed" was placed inside parentheses in several editions. "...because there was no more occasion for them" was placed in quotation marks in several editions. "...love of many" and "waxed cold" received quotation marks or italics in some editions. I examined several editions of Wesley’s sermons published before 1841 and found minor inconsistencies with Pratt’s quotation.

“It does not appear that the extraordinary gifts of the spirit…” reads “It does not appear that the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost…” in several editions of Wesley’s sermons.

“…faith on the earth” reads “faith upon earth” in several editions.

“…vain imagination of promoting the Christian religion” reads “…vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby” in several editions.

Pratt’s quotation omits the end of the following sentence: “…honour upon the Christians in general; but in particular, upon the Christian clergy.” (The quotation in the Millennial Star does end with a large space, possibly intended to mark the omission.)

Punctuation also differs in places. “…as has vulgarly been supposed” was placed inside parentheses in several editions. “…because there was no more occasion for them” was placed in quotation marks in several editions. “…love of many” and “waxed cold” received quotation marks or italics in some editions.

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