Comments on: From the Archives: Interview with a (Strawman?) Clergyman http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5279 smb Sat, 03 May 2008 03:19:17 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5279 Sure. I have some material from the organs squirreled away somewhere. mostly it's mockery when they bother to specify Methodists, so I'll be interested to see the more positive stuff. I think a fascinating paper (that I have material for but no time to write) would be a treatment of Mormon anti-Protestantism. Sure. I have some material from the organs squirreled away somewhere. mostly it’s mockery when they bother to specify Methodists, so I’ll be interested to see the more positive stuff. I think a fascinating paper (that I have material for but no time to write) would be a treatment of Mormon anti-Protestantism.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5258 Christopher Fri, 02 May 2008 22:47:41 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5258 Sam, I'm currently working on a paper examining the construction of Methodism and Methodists in early LDS discourse that I plan to submit for publication somewhere. If you're interested and willing, I'll send it your way when I finish it to get your feedback. Sam, I’m currently working on a paper examining the construction of Methodism and Methodists in early LDS discourse that I plan to submit for publication somewhere. If you’re interested and willing, I’ll send it your way when I finish it to get your feedback.

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5253 smb Fri, 02 May 2008 22:37:30 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5253 Christopher, I'll be interested to see your sources (and my disagreement is intended respectfully as well). Most of the Mormon sources I have seen are anti-Methodist, either deriding them as enthusiasts or mocking their pretensions to ministerial dignity. Since Methodists were so powerful and common in SGA, much of what I see has them treating Methodists as a metonym for all clergy (even if they seem aware of the conflict between arminianism and predestinarian orthodoxy). Christopher, I’ll be interested to see your sources (and my disagreement is intended respectfully as well). Most of the Mormon sources I have seen are anti-Methodist, either deriding them as enthusiasts or mocking their pretensions to ministerial dignity. Since Methodists were so powerful and common in SGA, much of what I see has them treating Methodists as a metonym for all clergy (even if they seem aware of the conflict between arminianism and predestinarian orthodoxy).

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5233 Christopher Fri, 02 May 2008 16:50:14 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5233 <em>Christopher, I think you’re overstating. It’s pretty clear from the early sources that Gentile=Protestant, and the LDS were not careful to distinguish denominations except when they were in specific tangles with them. The host denomination for a convert of course would be treated somewhat differently, so since several were Methodists at one time they could speak more clearly about them.</em> I respectfully disagree. I'm not trying to overhaul the notion that Gentile=Protestant and that the majority of the time Mormon identity in relation to the Protestant world was painted in explicitly black/white terms. It certainly was. However, at times LDS <em>were</em> indeed careful to distinguish between denominations even when not engaged in verbal battle with them. And it wasn't Mormon converts from Methodism alone that painted Methodism in more favorable light than other denominations of the day. Christopher, I think you’re overstating. It’s pretty clear from the early sources that Gentile=Protestant, and the LDS were not careful to distinguish denominations except when they were in specific tangles with them. The host denomination for a convert of course would be treated somewhat differently, so since several were Methodists at one time they could speak more clearly about them.

I respectfully disagree. I’m not trying to overhaul the notion that Gentile=Protestant and that the majority of the time Mormon identity in relation to the Protestant world was painted in explicitly black/white terms. It certainly was. However, at times LDS were indeed careful to distinguish between denominations even when not engaged in verbal battle with them. And it wasn’t Mormon converts from Methodism alone that painted Methodism in more favorable light than other denominations of the day.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5212 SC Taysom Fri, 02 May 2008 13:27:23 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5212 smb wrote, "the line between laiety and clergy was very blurry in that period." This can't be emphasized strongly enough. In some important sense the distinctions, at least as they had existed in the years from the Synod of Dort through the FGA, were all but totally elided during the SGA. This was a liminal period as the center of American religion shifted from a congregational Calvinist model to an evangelical synthesis. Soon enough the boundaries between clergy and laity were re-established, but significantly changed. smb wrote, “the line between laiety and clergy was very blurry in that period.” This can’t be emphasized strongly enough. In some important sense the distinctions, at least as they had existed in the years from the Synod of Dort through the FGA, were all but totally elided during the SGA. This was a liminal period as the center of American religion shifted from a congregational Calvinist model to an evangelical synthesis. Soon enough the boundaries between clergy and laity were re-established, but significantly changed.

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5210 smb Fri, 02 May 2008 12:52:17 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5210 Everyone, including Mormons, cited Clarke, whose Holy Bible was the standard Bible commentary of the day. Those three names stand in for the evangelical republic of letters and the parabiblical canon, but they are the types of names that an itinerant or lay exhorter would quote, rather than names that you would hear from established Calvinist clergy (not least given Clarke's Methodism). Confutus, the data on theological literacy of commoners during the SGA and after actually suggests that they did know many of these names and would invoke them as authorities. the line between laiety and clergy was very blurry in that period. Incidentally, I suspect you're misidentifying Scott. I would vote Thomas Scott, whose The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments. With Original Notes Practcal Observations. And Copious References by Thomas Scott, Rector of Aston Sandford, Bucks, and Chaplain to the Lock Hospital. In Six Volumes. was known as Scott's Family Bible and functioned much as Clarke's. Though the "Christians" gained a surprising number of devotees, their writings did not achieve deuterocanonical status, and they would not be inclined to quote someone like Clarke in their pursuit of true Christian primitivism. Christopher, I think you're overstating. It's pretty clear from the early sources that Gentile=Protestant, and the LDS were not careful to distinguish denominations except when they were in specific tangles with them. The host denomination for a convert of course would be treated somewhat differently, so since several were Methodists at one time they could speak more clearly about them. When I ran across this first (http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/on-missing-plates/#more-3297), I thought it was Parley, but the more I've looked over it, and the more I've seen how "P" was writing, the more I wonder whether this was Phelps rather than Pratt. It's almost certainly one of the two. Everyone, including Mormons, cited Clarke, whose Holy Bible was the standard Bible commentary of the day. Those three names stand in for the evangelical republic of letters and the parabiblical canon, but they are the types of names that an itinerant or lay exhorter would quote, rather than names that you would hear from established Calvinist clergy (not least given Clarke’s Methodism). Confutus, the data on theological literacy of commoners during the SGA and after actually suggests that they did know many of these names and would invoke them as authorities. the line between laiety and clergy was very blurry in that period.

Incidentally, I suspect you’re misidentifying Scott. I would vote Thomas Scott, whose The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments. With Original Notes Practcal Observations. And Copious References by Thomas Scott, Rector of Aston Sandford, Bucks, and Chaplain to the Lock Hospital. In Six Volumes. was known as Scott’s Family Bible and functioned much as Clarke’s. Though the “Christians” gained a surprising number of devotees, their writings did not achieve deuterocanonical status, and they would not be inclined to quote someone like Clarke in their pursuit of true Christian primitivism.

Christopher, I think you’re overstating. It’s pretty clear from the early sources that Gentile=Protestant, and the LDS were not careful to distinguish denominations except when they were in specific tangles with them. The host denomination for a convert of course would be treated somewhat differently, so since several were Methodists at one time they could speak more clearly about them.

When I ran across this first (http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/on-missing-plates/#more-3297), I thought it was Parley, but the more I’ve looked over it, and the more I’ve seen how “P” was writing, the more I wonder whether this was Phelps rather than Pratt. It’s almost certainly one of the two.

]]> By: Justin http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5183 Justin Thu, 01 May 2008 14:13:23 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5183 I don't think too much should be read into the citations of Gill, Scott, and Clarke. W.W. Phelps cites the same three individuals in <a href="http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n07.htm" rel="nofollow">one of his letters</a> published in the M&A. Phelps represents, with a great deal of exaggeration, the whispers and discussions of "the wise men of the world, and the wary who watched diligently over their flocks" regarding modern prophets. I don’t think too much should be read into the citations of Gill, Scott, and Clarke. W.W. Phelps cites the same three individuals in one of his letters published in the M&A. Phelps represents, with a great deal of exaggeration, the whispers and discussions of “the wise men of the world, and the wary who watched diligently over their flocks” regarding modern prophets.

]]> By: Ben http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5169 Ben Thu, 01 May 2008 03:58:09 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5169 Chris: Interesting points; I think that such an interesting topic from you deserves it's own post.... Confutus: Bonus points to you for coming up with the possible authorities; while I guess it can't be proven, I personally think you are spot on. And, as for the discussion still being alive today, I do agree that it probably does take place from time to time, just not nearly as often as we tend to think it does (or as often as our general discourse hints at). Chris: Interesting points; I think that such an interesting topic from you deserves it’s own post….

Confutus: Bonus points to you for coming up with the possible authorities; while I guess it can’t be proven, I personally think you are spot on. And, as for the discussion still being alive today, I do agree that it probably does take place from time to time, just not nearly as often as we tend to think it does (or as often as our general discourse hints at).

]]> By: Confutus http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5167 Confutus Thu, 01 May 2008 02:47:54 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5167 I noticed that the clergymen mentioned three authorities. I would guess John Gill, a Baptist author of the 18th century, Walter Scott (a founder of the Disciples of Christ, not the famous author), and Adam Clarke, a Methodist author; both of the early 19th century. I have no idea how well he represents their opinions, but it seems unlikely that anyone other than a clergyman, (or other scholar of religion) would cite them at all. That inclines me to believe that this conversation, or something close to it, actually did take place. The specific objections the clergyman gives are still alive and well (along with nearly two century's worth of new ones), but rarely given explicitly by the same person at the same time. That may have been what this particlar saint found noteworthy. I noticed that the clergymen mentioned three authorities. I would guess John Gill, a Baptist author of the 18th century, Walter Scott (a founder of the Disciples of Christ, not the famous author), and Adam Clarke, a Methodist author; both of the early 19th century. I have no idea how well he represents their opinions, but it seems unlikely that anyone other than a clergyman, (or other scholar of religion) would cite them at all.
That inclines me to believe that this conversation, or something close to it, actually did take place.
The specific objections the clergyman gives are still alive and well (along with nearly two century’s worth of new ones), but rarely given explicitly by the same person at the same time. That may have been what this particlar saint found noteworthy.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/comment-page-1/#comment-5148 Christopher Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:19:27 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/from-the-archives-interview-with-a-strawman-clergyman/#comment-5148 Interesting find, Ben. As David said, this illustrates well the discursive techniques used by early Latter-day Saints to establish their identity and maintain boundaries between them and Protestants. This construction of the Protestant "other" by Mormons has led historians to assume that LDS saw themselves as explicitly different from their Protestant neighbors. While there is certainly something to that general notion, I think scholars have overstated their case because they have largely ignored how Mormons discussed and wrote about <em>specific</em> denominations, which often reveal greater flexibility in the boundaries used to establish LDS identity. This appears to be especially true in LDS discourse on Methodism. Interesting find, Ben. As David said, this illustrates well the discursive techniques used by early Latter-day Saints to establish their identity and maintain boundaries between them and Protestants.

This construction of the Protestant “other” by Mormons has led historians to assume that LDS saw themselves as explicitly different from their Protestant neighbors. While there is certainly something to that general notion, I think scholars have overstated their case because they have largely ignored how Mormons discussed and wrote about specific denominations, which often reveal greater flexibility in the boundaries used to establish LDS identity. This appears to be especially true in LDS discourse on Methodism.

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