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	<title>Comments on: Emerson&#8211;The Sequel!</title>
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		<title>By: Gage</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-38238</link>
		<dc:creator>Gage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well said. I just started studying Emerson, I was surprised to find his actual teachings were far from that which I had assumed by the general use of the few popular quotes. Your paper helps fill in the blanks. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said. I just started studying Emerson, I was surprised to find his actual teachings were far from that which I had assumed by the general use of the few popular quotes. Your paper helps fill in the blanks. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Role of Friendship and Community</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-7777</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Role of Friendship and Community</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] in case you didnt get enough on Emerson back in February (see here and here), this is an encore [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in case you didnt get enough on Emerson back in February (see here and here), this is an encore [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Transformation of Joseph?</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-3660</link>
		<dc:creator>Juvenile Instructor &#187; The Transformation of Joseph?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-3660</guid>
		<description>[...] also agree with Clark in believing that these similarities can be easily overstated (see here and here). While both hoped to collapse the distance between the sacred and the profane, I just can&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] also agree with Clark in believing that these similarities can be easily overstated (see here and here). While both hoped to collapse the distance between the sacred and the profane, I just can&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2942</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2942</guid>
		<description>Interesting post, Heidi. I&#039;d love to see you write something about the &quot;Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting&quot; Wordsworth quote that is almost obligatorily used in conference talks that mention pre-earth life. In my Mormons and Film class recently, we watched &quot;Man&#039;s Search For Happiness,&quot; a film that the Church premiered at the 1964 World&#039;s Fair in New York and then played on Temple Square for years. You may have seen the 1987 remake. The film attempts to answer the &quot;Where am I from/Why am I here/Where am I going?&quot; questions and begins with a description of pre-earth life. And guess what? The obligatory Wordsworth quote shows up. I had no idea that Mormons have related the quote to pre-earth life for so long. I wonder when it was first used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post, Heidi. I&#8217;d love to see you write something about the &#8220;Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting&#8221; Wordsworth quote that is almost obligatorily used in conference talks that mention pre-earth life. In my Mormons and Film class recently, we watched &#8220;Man&#8217;s Search For Happiness,&#8221; a film that the Church premiered at the 1964 World&#8217;s Fair in New York and then played on Temple Square for years. You may have seen the 1987 remake. The film attempts to answer the &#8220;Where am I from/Why am I here/Where am I going?&#8221; questions and begins with a description of pre-earth life. And guess what? The obligatory Wordsworth quote shows up. I had no idea that Mormons have related the quote to pre-earth life for so long. I wonder when it was first used.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2860</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2860</guid>
		<description>Ray, was it a &lt;b&gt;re-&lt;/b&gt;positioning or simply a positioning?  (Yes, I know of the tradition of Eden being in Palestian)  I know a lot bring up the William Blake parallels here.  I&#039;m not sure I buy it.  The big difference between say Blake and Smith is that Joseph took things very realistically.  That is we aren&#039;t talking about a form such that the form of Eden is in many places.  Rather it is the &lt;i&gt;historic&lt;/i&gt; Eden (or rather the place Adam was cast out to) was in Missouri.

So I think Joseph tends to move quite away from the allegorical even though he has an appreciation for the allegorical as a way to discover the literal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, was it a <b>re-</b>positioning or simply a positioning?  (Yes, I know of the tradition of Eden being in Palestian)  I know a lot bring up the William Blake parallels here.  I&#8217;m not sure I buy it.  The big difference between say Blake and Smith is that Joseph took things very realistically.  That is we aren&#8217;t talking about a form such that the form of Eden is in many places.  Rather it is the <i>historic</i> Eden (or rather the place Adam was cast out to) was in Missouri.</p>
<p>So I think Joseph tends to move quite away from the allegorical even though he has an appreciation for the allegorical as a way to discover the literal.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Christensen</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2858</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2858</guid>
		<description>Insightful, as always, Clark.

FWIW, here is the passage in Ninian Smart&#039;s Worldviews that underlies my current view of Joseph Smith&#039;s distinctiveness.  And it should be evident that I use his definitions of the key terms.
&quot;If you stress the numinous, you stress that our salvation or liberation (our becoming holy) must flow from God the Other. It is he who brings it to us through his grace. You also stress the supreme power and dynamism of God as creator of the cosmos. If, on the other hand, you stress the mystical and non-dual, you tend to stress how we attain salvation and liberation through our own effort at mediation, not by the intervention of the Other… If we combine the two, but accent the numinous, we see mystical union as a kind of close embrace with the other—like human love, where the two are one and yet the two-ness remains. If the accent is on the mystical rather than the numinous, then God tends to be seen as a being whom we worship, but in such a way that we get beyond duality.&quot; Smart, Worldviews, 71–72.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insightful, as always, Clark.</p>
<p>FWIW, here is the passage in Ninian Smart&#8217;s Worldviews that underlies my current view of Joseph Smith&#8217;s distinctiveness.  And it should be evident that I use his definitions of the key terms.<br />
&#8220;If you stress the numinous, you stress that our salvation or liberation (our becoming holy) must flow from God the Other. It is he who brings it to us through his grace. You also stress the supreme power and dynamism of God as creator of the cosmos. If, on the other hand, you stress the mystical and non-dual, you tend to stress how we attain salvation and liberation through our own effort at mediation, not by the intervention of the Other… If we combine the two, but accent the numinous, we see mystical union as a kind of close embrace with the other—like human love, where the two are one and yet the two-ness remains. If the accent is on the mystical rather than the numinous, then God tends to be seen as a being whom we worship, but in such a way that we get beyond duality.&#8221; Smart, Worldviews, 71–72.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2856</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2856</guid>
		<description>Clark, kind of like repositioning the Garden of Eden to Missouri - or, now, in multiple locations around the world in our temples?  Like believing that if it is a figurative account, location really doesn&#039;t matter - as long as it is solidly within this world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark, kind of like repositioning the Garden of Eden to Missouri &#8211; or, now, in multiple locations around the world in our temples?  Like believing that if it is a figurative account, location really doesn&#8217;t matter &#8211; as long as it is solidly within this world?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2854</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2854</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s fair to say that Joseph&#039;s eschatology grows from his theophanies.  Certainly there are some elements there and some interesting parallels to classic Jewish apocalyptic literature.  But just as I think apocalyptic literature demands we consider the historic situation of persecution and a hope for redemption *now* I think Joseph and the Church&#039;s context brings us to that moment.  That is as important as the religious experiences were that historical context really helped determined emphasis and interpretation as well as arguably bringing about many of the experiences.

Beyond that though I agree.  The difference between the numinous and mystical is pretty significant and a key difference between Mormons and Platonists like the transcendentalists.  Where there is common ground is that Mormons often find the profound and spiritual &lt;i&gt;in this world&lt;/i&gt; rather than in some otherworldly realm.  In that way they are like that old Zen story about the guy seeking enlightenment.  

Before seeking enlightenment mountains were just mountains.  While seeking enlightenment mountains weren&#039;t just mountains.  Once enlightenment was found mountains were mountains.  

Meaning that often folks seeking the profound mystical experience seek something otherworldly.  But many authentic mystical encounters (such as Emerson&#039;s view of nature) are in the world.  We recognize as enchanted that which was always here.

The difference that Mormonism adds is that we take what was other worldly and make in part of this world.  So in a way it&#039;s a further step yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s fair to say that Joseph&#8217;s eschatology grows from his theophanies.  Certainly there are some elements there and some interesting parallels to classic Jewish apocalyptic literature.  But just as I think apocalyptic literature demands we consider the historic situation of persecution and a hope for redemption *now* I think Joseph and the Church&#8217;s context brings us to that moment.  That is as important as the religious experiences were that historical context really helped determined emphasis and interpretation as well as arguably bringing about many of the experiences.</p>
<p>Beyond that though I agree.  The difference between the numinous and mystical is pretty significant and a key difference between Mormons and Platonists like the transcendentalists.  Where there is common ground is that Mormons often find the profound and spiritual <i>in this world</i> rather than in some otherworldly realm.  In that way they are like that old Zen story about the guy seeking enlightenment.  </p>
<p>Before seeking enlightenment mountains were just mountains.  While seeking enlightenment mountains weren&#8217;t just mountains.  Once enlightenment was found mountains were mountains.  </p>
<p>Meaning that often folks seeking the profound mystical experience seek something otherworldly.  But many authentic mystical encounters (such as Emerson&#8217;s view of nature) are in the world.  We recognize as enchanted that which was always here.</p>
<p>The difference that Mormonism adds is that we take what was other worldly and make in part of this world.  So in a way it&#8217;s a further step yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Christensen</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2842</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2842</guid>
		<description>Very insightful.  FWIW, I did a 36 page essay on Emerson and Smith for an American Literature class at San Jose State. It was interesting to pull out numerous parallel teachings from Emerson and Smith, and then to note the dates, with Joseph typically preceeding Emerson. I compared the &quot;light&quot; passages in D&amp;C 88 with passages in Nature.

While Emerson typically rejects the notion of a personal God, and shocked the Divinity school by telling the ministers to be that they should see Jesus as a man, and rejects the idea of finding out about the after-life, or seeking a personal answer in words, I find his poem Threnody directly contradicts nearly everything else he says.  In the poem, structured much like the letters from Liberty Jail, his despair turns to light on recieving a personal answer in words regarding his lost son, Waldo.

I decided that the key differences in the two men stem from Emerson&#039;s primarily mystic experience (other than Threnody) in contrast to Joseph&#039;s experience bridging the numinous and the mystic. (Citing Kotlko&#039;s Sunstone essay on Mormonism and Mysticism, and Ninian Smart on the implications of the bridging). Common teachings grew from the mystic common ground.  Joseph&#039;s distinctive eschatological view, completely alien to Emerson&#039;s thought, grows from his numinous theophanies.

It is fun to imagine a young Joseph Smith, recovering from his leg surgery, hobbling along the ocean beaches near Concord, and passing the slightly older Emerson.

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very insightful.  FWIW, I did a 36 page essay on Emerson and Smith for an American Literature class at San Jose State. It was interesting to pull out numerous parallel teachings from Emerson and Smith, and then to note the dates, with Joseph typically preceeding Emerson. I compared the &#8220;light&#8221; passages in D&amp;C 88 with passages in Nature.</p>
<p>While Emerson typically rejects the notion of a personal God, and shocked the Divinity school by telling the ministers to be that they should see Jesus as a man, and rejects the idea of finding out about the after-life, or seeking a personal answer in words, I find his poem Threnody directly contradicts nearly everything else he says.  In the poem, structured much like the letters from Liberty Jail, his despair turns to light on recieving a personal answer in words regarding his lost son, Waldo.</p>
<p>I decided that the key differences in the two men stem from Emerson&#8217;s primarily mystic experience (other than Threnody) in contrast to Joseph&#8217;s experience bridging the numinous and the mystic. (Citing Kotlko&#8217;s Sunstone essay on Mormonism and Mysticism, and Ninian Smart on the implications of the bridging). Common teachings grew from the mystic common ground.  Joseph&#8217;s distinctive eschatological view, completely alien to Emerson&#8217;s thought, grows from his numinous theophanies.</p>
<p>It is fun to imagine a young Joseph Smith, recovering from his leg surgery, hobbling along the ocean beaches near Concord, and passing the slightly older Emerson.</p>
<p>Kevin Christensen<br />
Pittsburgh, PA</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/comment-page-1/#comment-2827</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/emerson-the-sequel/#comment-2827</guid>
		<description>To add, I should say that some of the recent attempts by some thinkers to reconcile aspects of process theology with Mormon thought are interesting here.  (The most obvious examples being Blake Ostler and James McLachlan)  I don&#039;t think it ultimately works though.  At least no more than Pratt&#039;s does.  But it&#039;s good that at least the process thought guys are trying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add, I should say that some of the recent attempts by some thinkers to reconcile aspects of process theology with Mormon thought are interesting here.  (The most obvious examples being Blake Ostler and James McLachlan)  I don&#8217;t think it ultimately works though.  At least no more than Pratt&#8217;s does.  But it&#8217;s good that at least the process thought guys are trying.</p>
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