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	<title>Comments on: Eliza, Adam, and the Heavenly Mother</title>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2353</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>BiV,
I think they are referring to the new BRITISH JOURNAL OF MORMON STUDIES. There is a recent post on BCC about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BiV,<br />
I think they are referring to the new BRITISH JOURNAL OF MORMON STUDIES. There is a recent post on BCC about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bored in Vernal</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2347</link>
		<dc:creator>Bored in Vernal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 05:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This will prove that I am hopelessly out of the loop, but pray tell, what or where is BJMS and will the promised clash be open to interested observers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will prove that I am hopelessly out of the loop, but pray tell, what or where is BJMS and will the promised clash be open to interested observers?</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2340</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2340</guid>
		<description>Now you&#039;re seeming equivocal and timid.  Better strap on your armor, you spade-wielder.
Hey does any one have the references for Ostler&#039;s rejection of MiH?  I need some printed sources for bibliography.
You inspired me to go to work on the chapter today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now you&#8217;re seeming equivocal and timid.  Better strap on your armor, you spade-wielder.<br />
Hey does any one have the references for Ostler&#8217;s rejection of MiH?  I need some printed sources for bibliography.<br />
You inspired me to go to work on the chapter today.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2337</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2337</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;will demonstrate that Stapley is unduly timid about the Smithian provenance of MiH&lt;/em&gt;

Hee hee.

I agree that Joseph believed it.  I will however, call a spade a spade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>will demonstrate that Stapley is unduly timid about the Smithian provenance of MiH</em></p>
<p>Hee hee.</p>
<p>I agree that Joseph believed it.  I will however, call a spade a spade.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2335</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2335</guid>
		<description>BiV, Stapley and I are going to have to take our argument to BJMS (if the editors agree).

1. AoD was God according to most Protestants. Various mystical thinkers speculated about who he might be; he is central to Daniel&#039;s Apocalypse, the main OT competitor with Revelation for millenarian imagination.  Smith was well outside the mainstream on this point, but not alone.

2. He was not thereby transitively making Adam God. He WAS establishing Adam as the first human father and the grand patriarch of the whole human family.  In his eschatology Adam was the father of humanity and would preside at the council of humanity ready to meet Jesus at the parousia.  In this model, Adam was like a &quot;father&quot; and God was thus the &quot;grandfather&quot; even though God was the &quot;Father.&quot;  This is importantly different from later Adam-God but is recognizable as the source of the later Youngian speculations.

3. MiH did not originate with Eliza RS Smith.  Stapley is afraid of the truth. Once I get time to attack the question in a more rigorous way,  will demonstrate that Stapley is unduly timid about the Smithian provenance of MiH.  Phelps, Smith&#039;s ghostwriter and primary assistant on the Egyptian work (which is concerned with immortalized queens, a ready antecedent for MiH), quite clearly invoked MiH five months after Smith died, in a venue reviewed by all of Smith&#039;s closest advisors and family.  This is a truly first-hand witness from someone intimately involved in Smith&#039;s mystical eschatology/divine anthropology.
3a. Eliza did associate MiH with Adam-God, but it was really part of the much bigger package of the divine anthropology and the familialization of God.  MiH can easily stand without AG for ERSS, though she would have protested their separation.

4. I feel that the best evidence strongly supports (distinct from &quot;unequivocally proves&quot;) the origination of MiH with Joseph Smith.  The best source on this should be a chapter in my death book, which I hope to have out to academic publishers by Summer 2008.  In one sentence, Joseph Smith familialized Deity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BiV, Stapley and I are going to have to take our argument to BJMS (if the editors agree).</p>
<p>1. AoD was God according to most Protestants. Various mystical thinkers speculated about who he might be; he is central to Daniel&#8217;s Apocalypse, the main OT competitor with Revelation for millenarian imagination.  Smith was well outside the mainstream on this point, but not alone.</p>
<p>2. He was not thereby transitively making Adam God. He WAS establishing Adam as the first human father and the grand patriarch of the whole human family.  In his eschatology Adam was the father of humanity and would preside at the council of humanity ready to meet Jesus at the parousia.  In this model, Adam was like a &#8220;father&#8221; and God was thus the &#8220;grandfather&#8221; even though God was the &#8220;Father.&#8221;  This is importantly different from later Adam-God but is recognizable as the source of the later Youngian speculations.</p>
<p>3. MiH did not originate with Eliza RS Smith.  Stapley is afraid of the truth. Once I get time to attack the question in a more rigorous way,  will demonstrate that Stapley is unduly timid about the Smithian provenance of MiH.  Phelps, Smith&#8217;s ghostwriter and primary assistant on the Egyptian work (which is concerned with immortalized queens, a ready antecedent for MiH), quite clearly invoked MiH five months after Smith died, in a venue reviewed by all of Smith&#8217;s closest advisors and family.  This is a truly first-hand witness from someone intimately involved in Smith&#8217;s mystical eschatology/divine anthropology.<br />
3a. Eliza did associate MiH with Adam-God, but it was really part of the much bigger package of the divine anthropology and the familialization of God.  MiH can easily stand without AG for ERSS, though she would have protested their separation.</p>
<p>4. I feel that the best evidence strongly supports (distinct from &#8220;unequivocally proves&#8221;) the origination of MiH with Joseph Smith.  The best source on this should be a chapter in my death book, which I hope to have out to academic publishers by Summer 2008.  In one sentence, Joseph Smith familialized Deity.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2331</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2331</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;It is more like “testimony given after the death of Joseph from first hand witnesses.” &lt;/em&gt;

I should say, we get the most important of these witnesses second hand, so it is not quite as good as I make it sound above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>It is more like “testimony given after the death of Joseph from first hand witnesses.” </em></p>
<p>I should say, we get the most important of these witnesses second hand, so it is not quite as good as I make it sound above.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob J</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2313</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2313</guid>
		<description>J., 

It is true we don&#039;t have a contemporary teaching of Joseph Smith on the matter; I can appreciate your care in making this clear.  It is important to note that the earliest mentions of MiH come within the first year following the death of Joseph, so they are very early and from multiple people in the inner circle.  We also have the testimony of a couple of those people who mentioned it early on that they learned it from Joseph Smith.  I don&#039;t think these evidences are accurately described as &quot;circumstantial inference.&quot;  It is more like &quot;testimony given after the death of Joseph from first hand witnesses.&quot;  

BiV,

&lt;em&gt;was the Divine Feminine inextricably linked in her writings with Adam-God?&lt;/em&gt;

You will find no mention of Adam-God in &quot;O My Father,&quot; so it is certainly extricable. 

&lt;em&gt;today’s feminist is disturbed by the ringing silence coming from the Heavens on her role and lack of interaction with her children.&lt;/em&gt;

That is true, but it doesn&#039;t seem to get any better if we throw the idea of MiH out wholesale.  So, even if it is not enough to satisfy modern feminism I think it is better than having nothing to say at all.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of people disturbed by the ringing silence coming from either gender in the Heavens, so reasons to be disturbed abound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J., </p>
<p>It is true we don&#8217;t have a contemporary teaching of Joseph Smith on the matter; I can appreciate your care in making this clear.  It is important to note that the earliest mentions of MiH come within the first year following the death of Joseph, so they are very early and from multiple people in the inner circle.  We also have the testimony of a couple of those people who mentioned it early on that they learned it from Joseph Smith.  I don&#8217;t think these evidences are accurately described as &#8220;circumstantial inference.&#8221;  It is more like &#8220;testimony given after the death of Joseph from first hand witnesses.&#8221;  </p>
<p>BiV,</p>
<p><em>was the Divine Feminine inextricably linked in her writings with Adam-God?</em></p>
<p>You will find no mention of Adam-God in &#8220;O My Father,&#8221; so it is certainly extricable. </p>
<p><em>today’s feminist is disturbed by the ringing silence coming from the Heavens on her role and lack of interaction with her children.</em></p>
<p>That is true, but it doesn&#8217;t seem to get any better if we throw the idea of MiH out wholesale.  So, even if it is not enough to satisfy modern feminism I think it is better than having nothing to say at all.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of people disturbed by the ringing silence coming from either gender in the Heavens, so reasons to be disturbed abound.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2309</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2309</guid>
		<description>BiV. I&#039;ll take a swipe at your questions.

 - The interpretation of the Ancient of Days as Adam/Michael is well attested in Joseph&#039;s sermonizing and Church periodicals as early as 1835.

 - This interpretation was not an association of Adam with God the Father.

 - Eliza was not the first to publicly mention Mother in Heaven.  That would be Phelps.  Woodruff&#039;s odd categorization of Eliza&#039;s hymn as a revelation, could mean that he simply believed the words were inspired, or that he forgot about Phelps, or that he didn&#039;t remember Joseph teaching it, or something else entirely.

 - MiH did not originate with Adam-God, but most of the twentieth-century perspectives on MiH are the remnants of Adam-God.

 - We have no extant contemporary teachings of Joseph Smith on the matter (e.g., the famous Zina quote was actually written by Susa Young Gates in the early twentieth-century).  Any argument that Joseph believed in Mother in Heaven is therefor based on circumstantial and logical inference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BiV. I&#8217;ll take a swipe at your questions.</p>
<p> &#8211; The interpretation of the Ancient of Days as Adam/Michael is well attested in Joseph&#8217;s sermonizing and Church periodicals as early as 1835.</p>
<p> &#8211; This interpretation was not an association of Adam with God the Father.</p>
<p> &#8211; Eliza was not the first to publicly mention Mother in Heaven.  That would be Phelps.  Woodruff&#8217;s odd categorization of Eliza&#8217;s hymn as a revelation, could mean that he simply believed the words were inspired, or that he forgot about Phelps, or that he didn&#8217;t remember Joseph teaching it, or something else entirely.</p>
<p> &#8211; MiH did not originate with Adam-God, but most of the twentieth-century perspectives on MiH are the remnants of Adam-God.</p>
<p> &#8211; We have no extant contemporary teachings of Joseph Smith on the matter (e.g., the famous Zina quote was actually written by Susa Young Gates in the early twentieth-century).  Any argument that Joseph believed in Mother in Heaven is therefor based on circumstantial and logical inference.</p>
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		<title>By: Bored in Vernal</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2304</link>
		<dc:creator>Bored in Vernal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2304</guid>
		<description>Some questions for the esteemed panel:
What was the consensus of religious thinkers in Joseph&#039;s milieu on the identity of the Ancient of Days?
By identifying Adam with the Ancient of Days, was he breaking with Christian thought, or associating Adam with Deity?
Did MiH originate with Eliza, and if so, was the Divine Feminine inextricably linked in her writings with Adam-God?
Did MiH originate earlier than Eliza (Joseph?), if so in what context did he teach the concept?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some questions for the esteemed panel:<br />
What was the consensus of religious thinkers in Joseph&#8217;s milieu on the identity of the Ancient of Days?<br />
By identifying Adam with the Ancient of Days, was he breaking with Christian thought, or associating Adam with Deity?<br />
Did MiH originate with Eliza, and if so, was the Divine Feminine inextricably linked in her writings with Adam-God?<br />
Did MiH originate earlier than Eliza (Joseph?), if so in what context did he teach the concept?</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-2298</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-adam-and-the-heavenly-mother/#comment-2298</guid>
		<description>10, MiH clearly predates Adam-God. MiH is well documented at the very latest by December 1844, while Adam-God comes later.  (Bearing in mind that the central role of Adam as the &quot;Ancient of Days&quot; or &quot;Michael&quot; is older, and the hierarchical family with Adam the father of humanity is also older.

I agree that what to do with the Divine Feminine is a complicated issue for modern LDS.  Catherine Albanese has analyzed this from a dyadic perspective as a non-Mormon observer of Eliza Snow and crew. A Sunstone paper 20yrs ago maybe and her recent &lt;em&gt;Republic of Mind and Spirit&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>10, MiH clearly predates Adam-God. MiH is well documented at the very latest by December 1844, while Adam-God comes later.  (Bearing in mind that the central role of Adam as the &#8220;Ancient of Days&#8221; or &#8220;Michael&#8221; is older, and the hierarchical family with Adam the father of humanity is also older.</p>
<p>I agree that what to do with the Divine Feminine is a complicated issue for modern LDS.  Catherine Albanese has analyzed this from a dyadic perspective as a non-Mormon observer of Eliza Snow and crew. A Sunstone paper 20yrs ago maybe and her recent <em>Republic of Mind and Spirit</em>.</p>
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