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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Dramatic, Eerie, Violent, Erotic,&#8221; Walter A. McDougall on Early Mormonism</title>
	<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5717</link>
		<dc:creator>BHodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5717</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The tale [of Mormon origins and its history through Smith’s death] is so dramatic, eerie, violent, erotic, and steeped in the pioneer spirit–so downright American–that is surely would have become a staple of pop culture but for the disconcerting insistence of Mormons that it all really happened.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is my favorite selection.

I wonder what he finds most disconcerting. (I feel the attitude of the author here more than the people he is presumably speaking of in the "pop culture." It would have better served the author to cite examples of reactions from both friend and foe, contemporary reactions as well, rather than to make these generalized assertions.) Is it the gold plates and angelic manifestations? The miraculous healings? Polygamy? A political Kingdom of God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The tale [of Mormon origins and its history through Smith’s death] is so dramatic, eerie, violent, erotic, and steeped in the pioneer spirit–so downright American–that is surely would have become a staple of pop culture but for the disconcerting insistence of Mormons that it all really happened.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is my favorite selection.</p>
<p>I wonder what he finds most disconcerting. (I feel the attitude of the author here more than the people he is presumably speaking of in the &#8220;pop culture.&#8221; It would have better served the author to cite examples of reactions from both friend and foe, contemporary reactions as well, rather than to make these generalized assertions.) Is it the gold plates and angelic manifestations? The miraculous healings? Polygamy? A political Kingdom of God?</p>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5678</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 10:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5678</guid>
		<description>McDougall cites Bushman's earlier Smith bio, &lt;em&gt;Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism&lt;/em&gt;, but not &lt;em&gt;RSR&lt;/em&gt;. Apparently he (or, more likely,his research assistants at Penn) worked through the secondary sources for Mormonism before 2005. I agree that it is a pretty significant miss historiographically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McDougall cites Bushman&#8217;s earlier Smith bio, <em>Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism</em>, but not <em>RSR</em>. Apparently he (or, more likely,his research assistants at Penn) worked through the secondary sources for Mormonism before 2005. I agree that it is a pretty significant miss historiographically.</p>
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		<title>By: John Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5673</link>
		<dc:creator>John Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5673</guid>
		<description>Doesn't Moore think the courting of persecution extended far beyond Smith and was a fundamental component of Mormonism more broadly?

I see generalists quote Brooke all the time. I always wonder if they've actually read his book. I remember it as rather hard to get through (not to mention unconvincing). I wouldn't quite lump Brodie into the same category. Hers at least a thoughtful engagement with Smith and something I still recommend to students unfamiliar with Mormonism (in conjunction with Rough Stone Rolling). Did McDougall not cite Bushman? That seems unforgiveable in a 2008 book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t Moore think the courting of persecution extended far beyond Smith and was a fundamental component of Mormonism more broadly?</p>
<p>I see generalists quote Brooke all the time. I always wonder if they&#8217;ve actually read his book. I remember it as rather hard to get through (not to mention unconvincing). I wouldn&#8217;t quite lump Brodie into the same category. Hers at least a thoughtful engagement with Smith and something I still recommend to students unfamiliar with Mormonism (in conjunction with Rough Stone Rolling). Did McDougall not cite Bushman? That seems unforgiveable in a 2008 book.</p>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5661</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 17:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5661</guid>
		<description>smb, I must confess that I wasn't thinking in terms of a divide between megalomania and martyrdom. In that case, you are probably right about Moore being the first to articulate the martyr angel with such specificity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smb, I must confess that I wasn&#8217;t thinking in terms of a divide between megalomania and martyrdom. In that case, you are probably right about Moore being the first to articulate the martyr angel with such specificity.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5658</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 15:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5658</guid>
		<description>sct, right you are. one of my favorite people in the world is a literary critic, but i still struggle to distinguish it from your beautifully named &lt;blockquote&gt;bargain basement psycho-historical approach&lt;/blockquote&gt;.

I'm curious about the courting martyrdom theme. i don't know the utah period well. was that argued a lot there?  the early explanations were that he was megalomanic rather than intentionally martyrish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sct, right you are. one of my favorite people in the world is a literary critic, but i still struggle to distinguish it from your beautifully named<br />
<blockquote>bargain basement psycho-historical approach</p></blockquote>
<p>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious about the courting martyrdom theme. i don&#8217;t know the utah period well. was that argued a lot there?  the early explanations were that he was megalomanic rather than intentionally martyrish.</p>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5657</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 12:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5657</guid>
		<description>"Cute but insubstantial." My guess is that lots of experts on various persons and events that McDougall touches on would respond the same way. That seems to be an occupational hazard when dealing with such large-scale projects. The sentence on the Book of Mormon is not nearly rigorous enough to be lit-crit, though. If anything it resembles the bargain basement psycho-historical approach in its suggestion that the author of a work of fiction is compelled to act out the tragic ending of that book in his own life. 

I suppose Moore might be the first person to have formally argued about the courting of martyrdom, but the "Joseph was asking for it" theme certainly predates &lt;em&gt;Religious Outsiders and the Making of Americans&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Cute but insubstantial.&#8221; My guess is that lots of experts on various persons and events that McDougall touches on would respond the same way. That seems to be an occupational hazard when dealing with such large-scale projects. The sentence on the Book of Mormon is not nearly rigorous enough to be lit-crit, though. If anything it resembles the bargain basement psycho-historical approach in its suggestion that the author of a work of fiction is compelled to act out the tragic ending of that book in his own life. </p>
<p>I suppose Moore might be the first person to have formally argued about the courting of martyrdom, but the &#8220;Joseph was asking for it&#8221; theme certainly predates <em>Religious Outsiders and the Making of Americans</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: David G.</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5637</link>
		<dc:creator>David G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 04:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5637</guid>
		<description>I don't recall seeing that argument before, but I'd have to go back and read that section of Brooke more closely to be sure. Certainly imaginative, even if it is offbase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t recall seeing that argument before, but I&#8217;d have to go back and read that section of Brooke more closely to be sure. Certainly imaginative, even if it is offbase.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5636</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 03:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5636</guid>
		<description>cute but insubstantial, the curious inversion of Dan Vogel's biographical criticism of the BoM.  sounds more like lit-crit than  history, but I agree that it's fun to see people engage texts.  the courtship of martyrdom is probably best attributed to Laurence Moore. thanks for the heads up on the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cute but insubstantial, the curious inversion of Dan Vogel&#8217;s biographical criticism of the BoM.  sounds more like lit-crit than  history, but I agree that it&#8217;s fun to see people engage texts.  the courtship of martyrdom is probably best attributed to Laurence Moore. thanks for the heads up on the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5629</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 00:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/dramatic-eerie-violent-erotic-walter-a-mcdougall-on-early-mormonism/#comment-5629</guid>
		<description>I see what you mean. He seems to have wrestled with Mormonism (even in a line or two, he shows more familiarity with the narrative of the Book of Mormon than most do), and even though he sees it from the other side of the mirror, he deserves credit for the effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you mean. He seems to have wrestled with Mormonism (even in a line or two, he shows more familiarity with the narrative of the Book of Mormon than most do), and even though he sees it from the other side of the mirror, he deserves credit for the effort.</p>
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