Comments on: Anglo-American Culture Wars and the Early Missionary Effort in England http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/ Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:48:52 -0400 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Rick Grunder http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28518 Rick Grunder Wed, 11 Feb 2009 06:50:05 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28518 I hope this is not too far off thread, but I would like to mention that there was an interesting correlation between Mormon and British millenarian hopes for the literal return of the Jews to Palestine at the precise time when Orson Hyde dedicated the Holy Land for that aspiration. On a broader plain, I expect that cultural differences between a barely literate Heber C. Kimball and a Charles Dickens would be too much to manage. But at more appropriately matched "levels" - and given a sympathy of ideals there (like the example I mention above), and a commonality of frustration about prevailing societal and religious norms (however mis-matched between the two hemispheres), there were many British subjects who were ripe for a harvest by Yankee prophets. I hope this is not too far off thread, but I would like to mention that there was an interesting correlation between Mormon and British millenarian hopes for the literal return of the Jews to Palestine at the precise time when Orson Hyde dedicated the Holy Land for that aspiration. On a broader plain, I expect that cultural differences between a barely literate Heber C. Kimball and a Charles Dickens would be too much to manage. But at more appropriately matched “levels” – and given a sympathy of ideals there (like the example I mention above), and a commonality of frustration about prevailing societal and religious norms (however mis-matched between the two hemispheres), there were many British subjects who were ripe for a harvest by Yankee prophets.

]]> By: David G. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28500 David G. Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:14:54 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28500 Hehe, I had the same reaction. But since this is his once-every-six-months visit to the blog, he probably won't see our gentle ribbing. ;) Hehe, I had the same reaction. But since this is his once-every-six-months visit to the blog, he probably won’t see our gentle ribbing. ;)

]]> By: matt b. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28498 matt b. Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:49:45 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28498 Whoa, a stan sighting. I am pleased. Whoa, a stan sighting. I am pleased.

]]> By: stan http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28480 stan Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:08:24 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28480 excellent post Ryan. excellent post Ryan.

]]> By: David M. Morris http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28457 David M. Morris Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:44:23 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28457 Ryan, Please feel to contact me if you want UK based or British materials. I have a large amount of stuff, and my PhD is nearly complete on British Mormonism, so I am familiar with the historiography and context.davidmmorris @ hotmail . com. David G: Therein is the special relationship, one half of the world aspires to be an elitist Englishman, while the other half simply are. Steve: Yes, there was great debate about the veracity of records but also some skirmishes over class disctinction and defintion. I think you are doing some really interesting work and at the end of the day, these are still seen as academic fetishes for a small portion of the unwashed community. But hey elitism is what it is all about, finding that niche. You would make a very good Englishman. I am not so English or elitist, that I can't call you my friend. Hope to see you in Turin, Italy. (Blatant advertising: EMSA Conference 2009, www.euromormonstudies.com, or speak to your chapter rep. and this years concerence co-ordinator Mr Ronan James Head.) Ryan,
Please feel to contact me if you want UK based or British materials. I have a large amount of stuff, and my PhD is nearly complete on British Mormonism, so I am familiar with the historiography and context.davidmmorris @ hotmail . com.

David G: Therein is the special relationship, one half of the world aspires to be an elitist Englishman, while the other half simply are.

Steve: Yes, there was great debate about the veracity of records but also some skirmishes over class disctinction and defintion. I think you are doing some really interesting work and at the end of the day, these are still seen as academic fetishes for a small portion of the unwashed community. But hey elitism is what it is all about, finding that niche. You would make a very good Englishman. I am not so English or elitist, that I can’t call you my friend. Hope to see you in Turin, Italy.

(Blatant advertising: EMSA Conference 2009, http://www.euromormonstudies.com, or speak to your chapter rep. and this years concerence co-ordinator Mr Ronan James Head.)

]]> By: David G. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28420 David G. Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:53:37 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28420 Hehe, I guess Mike Quinn was aspiring to be an <a href="http://mormonhistory.byu.edu/search/aQuinn,+D.+Michael/aquinn+d+michael/1%2C2%2C50%2CB/frameset&FF=aquinn+d+michael&5%2C%2C49/indexsort=c" rel="nofollow">elitist Englishman</a> even during his MA days. On a more serious note, great post, Ryan. Hehe, I guess Mike Quinn was aspiring to be an elitist Englishman even during his MA days.

On a more serious note, great post, Ryan.

]]> By: Ryan Tobler http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28387 Ryan Tobler Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:24:45 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28387 Thanks all, for the suggestions and critiques. Can't tell you how nice it is to participate in real dialogue. Thanks all, for the suggestions and critiques. Can’t tell you how nice it is to participate in real dialogue.

]]> By: Phoebe http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28377 Phoebe Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:11:46 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28377 Great topic, Ryan. Another source you might find interesting is Craig L. Foster's book Penny Tracts and Polemics: A Critical Analysis of Anti-Mormon Pamphleteering in Great Britain (1837-1860), Kofford Books, Salt Lake City, (2002). The book includes reproductions of some of the tracts distributed to the British public to discourage conversions to Mormonism. Great topic, Ryan. Another source you might find interesting is Craig L. Foster’s book Penny Tracts and Polemics: A Critical Analysis of Anti-Mormon Pamphleteering in Great Britain (1837-1860), Kofford Books, Salt Lake City, (2002). The book includes reproductions of some of the tracts distributed to the British public to discourage conversions to Mormonism.

]]> By: Steve Fleming http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28374 Steve Fleming Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:58:08 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28374 Right, Ryan, your project is an interesting one. David. What the heck is "Prosopographical methodology?" Is that some sort of fancy elitist English talk? And all I remember saying in your office was that the Americans didn't keep any accurate membership numbers during Joseph Smith's lifetime and so that all the stuff in the Church Almanac for those years were guesses. Right, Ryan, your project is an interesting one.

David. What the heck is “Prosopographical methodology?” Is that some sort of fancy elitist English talk? And all I remember saying in your office was that the Americans didn’t keep any accurate membership numbers during Joseph Smith’s lifetime and so that all the stuff in the Church Almanac for those years were guesses.

]]> By: Ryan Tobler http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/comment-page-1/#comment-28373 Ryan Tobler Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:44:57 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/anglo-american-culture-wars-and-the-early-missionary-effort-in-england/#comment-28373 <blockquote><em>There were significant cultural differences between the classes; ie the Mormons were working in a different crowd than Mill and Carlyle.</em></blockquote> Agreed that there was a vast cultural divide between the classes - it was Victorian England. That's why I think that cultural credentials were often beside the point. But it seems hard to believe that Mormons would confine themselves to that demographic by choice. And why did they adopt those methods as opposed to alternatives? Could cultural awareness have informed this? Your point about the transatlantic community is well-made, Steve. Seems like evangelizing was in some ways an exception to the larger cultural questions; evangelicals and religious figures in general had freer rein and perhaps met less resistance than others.

There were significant cultural differences between the classes; ie the Mormons were working in a different crowd than Mill and Carlyle.

Agreed that there was a vast cultural divide between the classes – it was Victorian England. That’s why I think that cultural credentials were often beside the point. But it seems hard to believe that Mormons would confine themselves to that demographic by choice. And why did they adopt those methods as opposed to alternatives? Could cultural awareness have informed this?

Your point about the transatlantic community is well-made, Steve. Seems like evangelizing was in some ways an exception to the larger cultural questions; evangelicals and religious figures in general had freer rein and perhaps met less resistance than others.

]]>