Comments on: Adjusting the Chemistry of the Gold Plates http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Edje http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9229 Edje Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:36:33 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9229 Clark: Bingo. Clark: Bingo.

]]> By: Edje http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9228 Edje Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:35:51 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9228 Jared: Good catch. Since we don't know their size or whether they were double-sided or other details, any conjectures have to let go of the rod almost immediately, but it does seem like a whole pile of information came those twenty four plates. On the other hand, _Ether_ isn't very long, and Moroni goes on a couple of chapter-long disquisitions. Maybe part of the reason they seem to contain so much is that Moroni tells us things he left out---reflecting his own space limitations in the Plates of Mormon---but not how long they were. On the subject of the Jaredite plates: both Mormon and Nephi label an object as being pure gold (Jaredite plates and hilt of Laban's sword) but then don't call the plates they made gold of any sort, much less pure gold. Jared: Good catch. Since we don’t know their size or whether they were double-sided or other details, any conjectures have to let go of the rod almost immediately, but it does seem like a whole pile of information came those twenty four plates. On the other hand, _Ether_ isn’t very long, and Moroni goes on a couple of chapter-long disquisitions. Maybe part of the reason they seem to contain so much is that Moroni tells us things he left out—reflecting his own space limitations in the Plates of Mormon—but not how long they were.

On the subject of the Jaredite plates: both Mormon and Nephi label an object as being pure gold (Jaredite plates and hilt of Laban’s sword) but then don’t call the plates they made gold of any sort, much less pure gold.

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9212 Clark Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:06:54 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9212 Edje, I think any question of meaning introduces some degree of tension of the sort you raise. I think one problem with some literalists is that they often want a literalism where we accept the words but not the meaning or reference of words. (I'm not saying you are doing that - just that the way the issue is sometimes cast entails accepting the words but being unable to translate them into anything intelligible) Edje, I think any question of meaning introduces some degree of tension of the sort you raise. I think one problem with some literalists is that they often want a literalism where we accept the words but not the meaning or reference of words. (I’m not saying you are doing that – just that the way the issue is sometimes cast entails accepting the words but being unable to translate them into anything intelligible)

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9211 Clark Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:05:19 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9211 While I can't speak for Blake, I'm not sure he intended his position to entail there being a significant expansion. It's a fairly vague claim though. I notice that Blake seems willing to use it in a somewhat ad hoc fashion. As such it's main problem is that it explains too much I think. Don't like 2 Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? Hey, it's a JS expansion. Don't like prophecies that would make libertarian free will questionable? It's a JS expansion. We need to find some way to allow for a loose translation without making it so open anything goes. (That Blake's theory doesn't do this is hardly a problem of Blake though - it's an obvious question relative to translation given modern translations often include commentary and footnotes and the fact that the JST appears midrashic but is <i>called</i> a translation) While I can’t speak for Blake, I’m not sure he intended his position to entail there being a significant expansion. It’s a fairly vague claim though. I notice that Blake seems willing to use it in a somewhat ad hoc fashion.

As such it’s main problem is that it explains too much I think. Don’t like 2 Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? Hey, it’s a JS expansion. Don’t like prophecies that would make libertarian free will questionable? It’s a JS expansion.

We need to find some way to allow for a loose translation without making it so open anything goes. (That Blake’s theory doesn’t do this is hardly a problem of Blake though – it’s an obvious question relative to translation given modern translations often include commentary and footnotes and the fact that the JST appears midrashic but is called a translation)

]]> By: Jared T. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9210 Jared T. Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:27:22 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9210 This makes me think of the 24 Jaredite plates and all the information that it seems was on them. Growing up I always had the mental picture of 24 plates as 24 sets of plates like the Gold Plates, but thinking about it further, the description seems to refer to 24 plates not sets of plates. This makes me think of the 24 Jaredite plates and all the information that it seems was on them. Growing up I always had the mental picture of 24 plates as 24 sets of plates like the Gold Plates, but thinking about it further, the description seems to refer to 24 plates not sets of plates.

]]> By: Edje http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9209 Edje Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:22:30 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9209 Stephen: Thanks. Clark: I think the fact that an explanation was/is required at all is a source of tension. For the devout (as I imagine them (and include myself)), sentences starting with, "When the angel said that, they really meant...," induce tension---no matter that the explanation is ultimately and decisively successful. smb: The eBook-like angle is interesting; I hadn't thought of it at all. I see two reasons why it might not have made it into a source I examined. First, the weight question had been pretty definitively addressed by the time Ostler wrote, so there was no great need to find a new explanation. Second, I think that, in terms of contemporary Mormon understandings, the shift from "gold" to "gold/copper" is miniscule compared to a shift from "translator" to "translator/co-author"---especially if Smith's expansive contributions were enough to significantly alter the required information density of the plates. Stephen: Thanks.

Clark: I think the fact that an explanation was/is required at all is a source of tension. For the devout (as I imagine them (and include myself)), sentences starting with, “When the angel said that, they really meant…,” induce tension—no matter that the explanation is ultimately and decisively successful.

smb: The eBook-like angle is interesting; I hadn’t thought of it at all. I see two reasons why it might not have made it into a source I examined. First, the weight question had been pretty definitively addressed by the time Ostler wrote, so there was no great need to find a new explanation. Second, I think that, in terms of contemporary Mormon understandings, the shift from “gold” to “gold/copper” is miniscule compared to a shift from “translator” to “translator/co-author”—especially if Smith’s expansive contributions were enough to significantly alter the required information density of the plates.

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9200 smb Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:58:07 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9200 Clark, the Q is whether that is compatible with the amt of text on the BoM (sand isn't the only proposed sort of fake plates JSJ has been accused of creating). I'm surprised no one mentioned the plates as a supernatural eBook/Kindle, particularly in light of Ostler's old hypothesis in Dialogue about expansive/editorializing translation. Clark, the Q is whether that is compatible with the amt of text on the BoM (sand isn’t the only proposed sort of fake plates JSJ has been accused of creating).

I’m surprised no one mentioned the plates as a supernatural eBook/Kindle, particularly in light of Ostler’s old hypothesis in Dialogue about expansive/editorializing translation.

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9196 Clark Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:21:27 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9196 No, I guess my point Ben is that the witnesses said it was ~50 lbs so there wasn't much to explain in this case. No, I guess my point Ben is that the witnesses said it was ~50 lbs so there wasn’t much to explain in this case.

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9191 Stephen M (Ethesis) Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:00:48 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9191 <strong>Apologists point out that neither 1830s nor contemporary English require that “gold” mean “24-carat gold” and that it is not uncommon to refer to a ring made of 10-carat gold as a “gold ring.” On the other hand, Sunday Schoolers still speculate about how much plates of pure gold would be worth</strong> Nicely said. Apologists point out that neither 1830s nor contemporary English require that “gold” mean “24-carat gold” and that it is not uncommon to refer to a ring made of 10-carat gold as a “gold ring.” On the other hand, Sunday Schoolers still speculate about how much plates of pure gold would be worth

Nicely said.

]]> By: Ben http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-9190 Ben Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:24:27 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/adjusting-the-chemistry-of-the-gold-plates/#comment-9190 Clark: I was more commenting on how modern people have tried to explain the physicality of the plates. When it comes to the actual witnesses, I agree: most of them were satisfied as just describing them as tangible plates. Clark: I was more commenting on how modern people have tried to explain the physicality of the plates. When it comes to the actual witnesses, I agree: most of them were satisfied as just describing them as tangible plates.

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