Comments on: A Visit to Zion and Mormon Sacrament Meetings http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: J Lee http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8670 J Lee Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:11:42 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8670 See Wikipedia for a timeline of Sacrament changes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_(Latter_Day_Saints) See Wikipedia for a timeline of Sacrament changes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_(Latter_Day_Saints)

]]> By: David G. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8167 David G. Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:01:20 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8167 We should get a digital camera and a digital recorder and go ghost hunting at that guy's house. We should get a digital camera and a digital recorder and go ghost hunting at that guy’s house.

]]> By: matt b. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8151 matt b. Sat, 07 Jun 2008 06:22:35 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8151 Wow. Stan, you've got a knack for digging these people up. Floating orbs - those are a really common manifestation of ghosts. Hmmm. Wow. Stan, you’ve got a knack for digging these people up. Floating orbs – those are a really common manifestation of ghosts. Hmmm.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8142 SC Taysom Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:39:57 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8142 Stan, You have to get the tapes out and give us a sample. Don't let Matt have all the fun! Stan,

You have to get the tapes out and give us a sample. Don’t let Matt have all the fun!

]]> By: stan http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8141 stan Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:27:28 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8141 This post brings to mind a guy I met on my mission in Pennsylvania. Some sisters in my zone (missions are divided into geographic zones with about 5-6 companionships in each) were teaching the guy. He had a long beard that grew way up high on his cheekbones, nearly to his eyeballs. He came to church several times and seemed really interested but he really took issue with water instead of wine in the sacrament. He was quite opposed to it. The sisters kept teaching him and he kept bringing it up. One night they were teaching him and he went kinda bizerk on them. He told them he was like a prophet and that he had a gift that allowed him to discern error. (He also had visions of oracular floating orbs.) He said Mormonism was one of the most scriptural churches he had attended but the one error was the use of water instead of wine. Then he burst into revelatory language and went off on some harangue that kinda weirded them out. He gave them some of his recorded prophesies, which they gave to me later (I was curious). It began: "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty...Thus saith the Spirit..." or something like that. I've still got it somewhere. Maybe I should dig it up so Matt can write a paper on it. I'm not making any comparisons, John, of course :) just came to mind as I was thinking about water instead of wine. This post brings to mind a guy I met on my mission in Pennsylvania. Some sisters in my zone (missions are divided into geographic zones with about 5-6 companionships in each) were teaching the guy. He had a long beard that grew way up high on his cheekbones, nearly to his eyeballs. He came to church several times and seemed really interested but he really took issue with water instead of wine in the sacrament. He was quite opposed to it. The sisters kept teaching him and he kept bringing it up. One night they were teaching him and he went kinda bizerk on them. He told them he was like a prophet and that he had a gift that allowed him to discern error. (He also had visions of oracular floating orbs.) He said Mormonism was one of the most scriptural churches he had attended but the one error was the use of water instead of wine. Then he burst into revelatory language and went off on some harangue that kinda weirded them out. He gave them some of his recorded prophesies, which they gave to me later (I was curious). It began: “Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty…Thus saith the Spirit…” or something like that. I’ve still got it somewhere. Maybe I should dig it up so Matt can write a paper on it.

I’m not making any comparisons, John, of course :)
just came to mind as I was thinking about water instead of wine.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8134 SC Taysom Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:28:43 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8134 Thanks Matt, that clears it up for me. Thanks Matt, that clears it up for me.

]]> By: matt b http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8132 matt b Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:21:11 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8132 Taysom - I think Sam's got it; I probably should have added the suffix -al in my first sentence; that is, I'm saying that simply because a religious act is ritualized, doesn't mean it's conceived of as sacramental, in the sense of being a fixed channel for a particular type of grace. That's a point about theology, not ritual, though I certainly do agree that 'sacraments' as acts are all rituals of one form or another. Taysom – I think Sam’s got it; I probably should have added the suffix -al in my first sentence; that is, I’m saying that simply because a religious act is ritualized, doesn’t mean it’s conceived of as sacramental, in the sense of being a fixed channel for a particular type of grace.

That’s a point about theology, not ritual, though I certainly do agree that ‘sacraments’ as acts are all rituals of one form or another.

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8131 Clark Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:06:03 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8131 That was the one Justin. I think given the sacramental prayer language as well as the connections Welch brings up there is a strong performative view of it as a sacrament - which is not to neglect the memorial function as well. Both are present in the LDS language. As an aside it is sometimes interesting comparing the language for the sacrament in the <a href="http://www.homechurch.org/miscellaneous/early_didiche.html" rel="nofollow">Didiche</a> with that in Moroni. There really is a different view. That was the one Justin. I think given the sacramental prayer language as well as the connections Welch brings up there is a strong performative view of it as a sacrament – which is not to neglect the memorial function as well. Both are present in the LDS language.

As an aside it is sometimes interesting comparing the language for the sacrament in the Didiche with that in Moroni. There really is a different view.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8125 SC Taysom Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:12:12 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8125 Matt, not all rituals are sacraments, no question about that. They are certainly different categories, but would you argue that sacraments are not (usually) rituals? The sacraments of which I am aware all fit in at least one of Bell's genres of ritual action. Bell isn't the be all and end all, but I think it's a fairly widely accepted schema. I'm just curious about what sacraments might not be considered rituals as well. Matt, not all rituals are sacraments, no question about that. They are certainly different categories, but would you argue that sacraments are not (usually) rituals? The sacraments of which I am aware all fit in at least one of Bell’s genres of ritual action. Bell isn’t the be all and end all, but I think it’s a fairly widely accepted schema. I’m just curious about what sacraments might not be considered rituals as well.

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-8124 smb Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:08:00 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-visit-to-zion-and-mormon-sacrament-meetings/#comment-8124 matt b, agreed, it's a murky definitional area. rituals can memorialize without bestowing salvation. What's strange is that sacraments are implicitly so heavily theological that we often aren't quite sure how to describe them in the lived experiences of believers. matt b, agreed, it’s a murky definitional area. rituals can memorialize without bestowing salvation. What’s strange is that sacraments are implicitly so heavily theological that we often aren’t quite sure how to describe them in the lived experiences of believers.

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