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	<title>Comments on: A Thin Line Between Good and Evil</title>
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		<title>By: TStevens</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-18110</link>
		<dc:creator>TStevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bob,

A good book about this phenomenon is Phillip Zimbardo&#039;s write up of his Stanford Prison Experiment.  It came out in 2007 and is called The Lucifer Effect: Understanding how good people turn evil.  

One of his main points is it is not so much a few bad apples that turn a situation, rather it is the apple basket that is bad.  I think Massacre at Mountain Meadows attempt to show this by spending a lot of time detailing the &quot;perfect storm&quot; of politics, history, religion, and rhetoric that led to the events of September 11th.

Another point made is that common attitude held by good people that they are far removed from the people of these events.  As in the belief I would never have done that.  The Milgram experiment and the SPE, among others, show that ordinary people in the right environment can commit terrible atrocities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,</p>
<p>A good book about this phenomenon is Phillip Zimbardo&#8217;s write up of his Stanford Prison Experiment.  It came out in 2007 and is called The Lucifer Effect: Understanding how good people turn evil.  </p>
<p>One of his main points is it is not so much a few bad apples that turn a situation, rather it is the apple basket that is bad.  I think Massacre at Mountain Meadows attempt to show this by spending a lot of time detailing the &#8220;perfect storm&#8221; of politics, history, religion, and rhetoric that led to the events of September 11th.</p>
<p>Another point made is that common attitude held by good people that they are far removed from the people of these events.  As in the belief I would never have done that.  The Milgram experiment and the SPE, among others, show that ordinary people in the right environment can commit terrible atrocities.</p>
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		<title>By: Points of Interest, #32 &#171; Mind, Soul, and Body</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-16488</link>
		<dc:creator>Points of Interest, #32 &#171; Mind, Soul, and Body</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 00:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] DMI Dave Guest blogs at the Juvenile Instructor, and shares the thoughts of historian Ron Walker on the notorious, horrific and tragic episode in Mormon History that was the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  He thoughtfully reflects on Walker&#8217;s report that studying this event changed him for the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] DMI Dave Guest blogs at the Juvenile Instructor, and shares the thoughts of historian Ron Walker on the notorious, horrific and tragic episode in Mormon History that was the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  He thoughtfully reflects on Walker&#8217;s report that studying this event changed him for the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15837</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15837</guid>
		<description>narrator, I heard Walker at the Miller-Eccles meeting in Orange County.  I imagine he covered some of the same topics and questions at Claremont.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>narrator, I heard Walker at the Miller-Eccles meeting in Orange County.  I imagine he covered some of the same topics and questions at Claremont.</p>
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		<title>By: SC Taysom</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15819</link>
		<dc:creator>SC Taysom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15819</guid>
		<description>Dave writes that historical fiction 

&lt;blockquote&gt; seems to invite selective, spectulative, and even plain invented depictions of historical events and characters&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is true. Of course, I have found few historical works that do not engage, to some degree, in selectivity, speculation, and invention. I think that historical fiction and fictive history can both be useful to the degree that readers understand the aims and limitations of each genre and are prepared and willing to critically evaluate what they read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave writes that historical fiction </p>
<blockquote><p> seems to invite selective, spectulative, and even plain invented depictions of historical events and characters</p></blockquote>
<p>This is true. Of course, I have found few historical works that do not engage, to some degree, in selectivity, speculation, and invention. I think that historical fiction and fictive history can both be useful to the degree that readers understand the aims and limitations of each genre and are prepared and willing to critically evaluate what they read.</p>
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		<title>By: the narrator</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15816</link>
		<dc:creator>the narrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15816</guid>
		<description>Was this at CGU? If so, I&#039;m sorry that I didn&#039;t get to meet you personally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was this at CGU? If so, I&#8217;m sorry that I didn&#8217;t get to meet you personally.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15813</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15813</guid>
		<description>#9: I share your caution on historical novels. But in defense of Michael Shaara&#039;s book, he did rely mostly on the personal journals of four Generals: Lee and Longstreet for the South, Hancock and Chamberlain for the North.
The book came out at the height of the Vietnam War, and failed to sell because no one wanted to read a war novel a this point in time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#9: I share your caution on historical novels. But in defense of Michael Shaara&#8217;s book, he did rely mostly on the personal journals of four Generals: Lee and Longstreet for the South, Hancock and Chamberlain for the North.<br />
The book came out at the height of the Vietnam War, and failed to sell because no one wanted to read a war novel a this point in time.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Geisner</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15809</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Geisner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15809</guid>
		<description>This is a wonderful post and I am not surprised by your great experience with Ronald Walker. After his great book on the Godbeites came out he spoke in SoCal and it was one of the best presentations I have ever attended and quite personal. The paragraph you quote is excellent and I think the only way it could be better is if they had used the word Faragher suggested “ordinary’ instead of “normal”. After reading the book and listening to the panel with Faragher I became more troubled by this question of evil and violence. I decided to re-listen to a panel presentation at Sunstone about 10 years ago on Utah violence that included Mike Quinn.

Quinn discusses the events in the former Yugoslavia and Milosevic reign of terror. How people who had lived together for fifty plus years as neighbors and friends and then the Serbs started killing the Muslims in the most horrific ways. Why, because Milosevic was able through rhetoric to turn it into an “us” versus “them” state. Quinn’s model is brilliant and I suggest reading his “culture of violence” in “Mormon Hierarchy II”. Some of the historical work has already become dated, but the model found on page 260 second paragraph is absolutely brilliant.

Faragher also made some interesting comments as well. His discussion on violence towards Indians was quite interesting and his discussion about John D. Lee&#039;s participation in the Massacre at Bad Ax was mind expanding. The authors of the new book call it a Battle, when in fact it was as horrible as the massacre at the Meadows. After his comments I could not help but think that it took a Lee to carry out the massacre. Young, Haight and Dame did not have the stomach for a massacre. Young, as Bill MacKinnon shows so well in &quot;At Swords Point&quot;, could give orders for killing but then gets ill shortly after when tragedy struck. Dame and Haight made sure they were as far away from the meadows as they could be and still get the details. They would also give a show for everyone by crying like a baby or sending out messengers saying &quot;don&#039;t kill the emigrants&quot;. It seems the only other person capable of the massacre was Higbee and you have to wonder what rock he crawled out from under.

Faragher did not comment on the problem that this massacre is unique and does not fit his model. This was a case of whites massacring whites. As Quinn points out this was done by a religious body who lived in a theocracy. As Ardis Parshall and Paul Reeve point out in their review of “Blood of the Prophets” many people who visited Utah and compared it to other places in the west saw a much different society, here is Franklin A. Buck’s experience: “In Pioche we have two courts, any number of sheriffs and police officers and a jail to force people to do what is right. There is a fight every day and a man killed about every week. About half the town is whisky shops and houses of ill fame. In these Mormon towns there are no courts, no prisons, no saloons, no bad women; but there is a large brick Church and they keep the Sabbath—a fine schoolhouse and all the children go to school. All difficulties between each other are settled by the Elders and the Bishop. Instead of every man trying to hang his neighbor, they all pull together. There is only one store on the co-operative plan and all own shares and it is really wonderful to see what fine towns and the wealth they have in this barren country. It shows what industry and economy will do when all work together.” As both Will Bagley and David Bigler point out “Cedar City was no Dodge City”.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a wonderful post and I am not surprised by your great experience with Ronald Walker. After his great book on the Godbeites came out he spoke in SoCal and it was one of the best presentations I have ever attended and quite personal. The paragraph you quote is excellent and I think the only way it could be better is if they had used the word Faragher suggested “ordinary’ instead of “normal”. After reading the book and listening to the panel with Faragher I became more troubled by this question of evil and violence. I decided to re-listen to a panel presentation at Sunstone about 10 years ago on Utah violence that included Mike Quinn.</p>
<p>Quinn discusses the events in the former Yugoslavia and Milosevic reign of terror. How people who had lived together for fifty plus years as neighbors and friends and then the Serbs started killing the Muslims in the most horrific ways. Why, because Milosevic was able through rhetoric to turn it into an “us” versus “them” state. Quinn’s model is brilliant and I suggest reading his “culture of violence” in “Mormon Hierarchy II”. Some of the historical work has already become dated, but the model found on page 260 second paragraph is absolutely brilliant.</p>
<p>Faragher also made some interesting comments as well. His discussion on violence towards Indians was quite interesting and his discussion about John D. Lee&#8217;s participation in the Massacre at Bad Ax was mind expanding. The authors of the new book call it a Battle, when in fact it was as horrible as the massacre at the Meadows. After his comments I could not help but think that it took a Lee to carry out the massacre. Young, Haight and Dame did not have the stomach for a massacre. Young, as Bill MacKinnon shows so well in &#8220;At Swords Point&#8221;, could give orders for killing but then gets ill shortly after when tragedy struck. Dame and Haight made sure they were as far away from the meadows as they could be and still get the details. They would also give a show for everyone by crying like a baby or sending out messengers saying &#8220;don&#8217;t kill the emigrants&#8221;. It seems the only other person capable of the massacre was Higbee and you have to wonder what rock he crawled out from under.</p>
<p>Faragher did not comment on the problem that this massacre is unique and does not fit his model. This was a case of whites massacring whites. As Quinn points out this was done by a religious body who lived in a theocracy. As Ardis Parshall and Paul Reeve point out in their review of “Blood of the Prophets” many people who visited Utah and compared it to other places in the west saw a much different society, here is Franklin A. Buck’s experience: “In Pioche we have two courts, any number of sheriffs and police officers and a jail to force people to do what is right. There is a fight every day and a man killed about every week. About half the town is whisky shops and houses of ill fame. In these Mormon towns there are no courts, no prisons, no saloons, no bad women; but there is a large brick Church and they keep the Sabbath—a fine schoolhouse and all the children go to school. All difficulties between each other are settled by the Elders and the Bishop. Instead of every man trying to hang his neighbor, they all pull together. There is only one store on the co-operative plan and all own shares and it is really wonderful to see what fine towns and the wealth they have in this barren country. It shows what industry and economy will do when all work together.” As both Will Bagley and David Bigler point out “Cedar City was no Dodge City”.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15802</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15802</guid>
		<description>Bob, I&#039;m not a real fan of the historical fiction genre -- it seems to invite selective, spectulative, and even plain invented depictions of historical events and characters.

I&#039;m not familiar with &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killer_Angels&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Killer Angels&lt;/a&gt;, but the linked Wikipedia entry notes it won a Pulitzer Prize for fiction.  So I suppose that whatever can be done right in historical fiction is exemplified by that book.  The entry also notes that the book inspired Joss Whedon to create the &lt;i&gt;Firefly&lt;/i&gt; series, which may be the greatest single accomplishment of the genre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I&#8217;m not a real fan of the historical fiction genre &#8212; it seems to invite selective, spectulative, and even plain invented depictions of historical events and characters.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not familiar with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killer_Angels" rel="nofollow">The Killer Angels</a>, but the linked Wikipedia entry notes it won a Pulitzer Prize for fiction.  So I suppose that whatever can be done right in historical fiction is exemplified by that book.  The entry also notes that the book inspired Joss Whedon to create the <i>Firefly</i> series, which may be the greatest single accomplishment of the genre.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15801</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15801</guid>
		<description>&quot;He (Dave) comes by his knowledge of and interest in Mormon history the old-fashioned way, by reading books.&quot; That would describe me too.
  The &quot;theme&quot; Good Men/Evil Acts, is approached in a different literary style by Michael Shaara in his historical novel &quot;The Killer Angels&quot;. Do you (as a book reader), think this &#039;style&#039; can be, or should be used with Mormon historical topics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He (Dave) comes by his knowledge of and interest in Mormon history the old-fashioned way, by reading books.&#8221; That would describe me too.<br />
  The &#8220;theme&#8221; Good Men/Evil Acts, is approached in a different literary style by Michael Shaara in his historical novel &#8220;The Killer Angels&#8221;. Do you (as a book reader), think this &#8216;style&#8217; can be, or should be used with Mormon historical topics?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-15785</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 08:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-thin-line-between-good-and-evil/#comment-15785</guid>
		<description>Bob, the book gives some consideration to a framework drawn from the social science literature for understanding group violence, which is of course a different phenomenon than individual violence.  I think the comments the book makes about it are interesting, but I would have liked a longer and more detailed discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, the book gives some consideration to a framework drawn from the social science literature for understanding group violence, which is of course a different phenomenon than individual violence.  I think the comments the book makes about it are interesting, but I would have liked a longer and more detailed discussion.</p>
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