Comments on: “That Saints shall have power…the kingdom to take…” http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/ Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:59:52 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Arcade Banner Exchange http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-32798 Arcade Banner Exchange Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:04:57 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-32798 As a Newbie, I am always searching online for articles that can help me. Thank you As a Newbie, I am always searching online for articles that can help me. Thank you

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-9015 smb Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:36:41 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-9015 #16, the marian persecutions were the main material from my reading. from my reading most of the american stuff is rank anti-Catholicism intermixed in variable portions with both anti-monarchialism and what later generations would call Marxism (hatred of aristocracy and social stratification). Not clear to me that Rockwell's shooting blind eliminates the vengeance motif. They tended to see all their enemies as the minions of Satan, the gentiles whose civilization would collapse in short order. Shooting at an anti-Mormon mob is likely to be seen as executing vengeance regardless of the identity of the casualty. #16, the marian persecutions were the main material from my reading. from my reading most of the american stuff is rank anti-Catholicism intermixed in variable portions with both anti-monarchialism and what later generations would call Marxism (hatred of aristocracy and social stratification).

Not clear to me that Rockwell’s shooting blind eliminates the vengeance motif. They tended to see all their enemies as the minions of Satan, the gentiles whose civilization would collapse in short order. Shooting at an anti-Mormon mob is likely to be seen as executing vengeance regardless of the identity of the casualty.

]]> By: David G. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-9011 David G. Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:07:36 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-9011 Kristine, I have to admit that this is a section from a thesis chapter. There's no way I'd write a post this long with 26 notes just for fun. I like blogging, but I try not to let it take <em>all</em> my time. Wow, thanks Joe, for digging up that information. It seems pretty obvious to me that Rockwell did not know who he was shooting, and that it was only interpreted in the aftermath as avenging JS's blood. Clark, in my second thesis chapter I examine how persecution memory shaped Mormon images of nation, and they do discuss a lot how violent persecution is not supposed to happen in a free republic. In the asylum of the oppressed, people are supposed to be free to worship as they please, but in monarchical Europe, tyrants destroy religious liberty. So Mormons aren't referring to the religious wars in any detail, but the general idea is there. Kristine, I have to admit that this is a section from a thesis chapter. There’s no way I’d write a post this long with 26 notes just for fun. I like blogging, but I try not to let it take all my time.

Wow, thanks Joe, for digging up that information. It seems pretty obvious to me that Rockwell did not know who he was shooting, and that it was only interpreted in the aftermath as avenging JS’s blood.

Clark, in my second thesis chapter I examine how persecution memory shaped Mormon images of nation, and they do discuss a lot how violent persecution is not supposed to happen in a free republic. In the asylum of the oppressed, people are supposed to be free to worship as they please, but in monarchical Europe, tyrants destroy religious liberty. So Mormons aren’t referring to the religious wars in any detail, but the general idea is there.

]]> By: Clark http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-9001 Clark Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:43:08 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-9001 Something I've long wondered about as a context to Mormon suffering and reprisals is how they situated themselves (if at all) to the religious wars in Europe one to two centuries earlier. If nothing else the Puritan wars should have been a cultural context. Something I’ve long wondered about as a context to Mormon suffering and reprisals is how they situated themselves (if at all) to the religious wars in Europe one to two centuries earlier. If nothing else the Puritan wars should have been a cultural context.

]]> By: Joe Geisner http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8992 Joe Geisner Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:24:38 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8992 Unfortunately I only have Schindler's first edition, it seems that he found new information about the Worrell killing for the second edition. I doubt what he found would add much to Mike Quinn's MH:1 or rereading Clayton's entry. Clayton makes it clear that it was the next day after the killing before the people in Nauvoo knew it was Worrell. I may be reading too much into that, but I think it means Rockwell did not know who he was shooting. Rockwell is reported by Mormon sources to have said after killing Worrell: "I aimed for his belt buckle," and then added, "I was afraid my rifle couldn’t reach him, but it did, thank God." Among other things I think this means that it was quite a distance Rockwell had to shoot leading me to believe he did not know who he was shooting. Quinn has the following two interesting comments: 16 Sept. 1845 Orrin Porter Rockwell shoots Robert F. Smith and Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys militia who participated in the murder of Smith. Worrell dies. Later that day Rockwell kills four anti-Mormons at Highland Branch, near Warsaw, Illinois. [p.653] According to Clayton diary, 17 Sept. 1845, LDS archives, after killing Worrell, Rockwell went to Highland Branch near the anti-Mormon headquarters of Warsaw and killed four more "mobocrats." This part of the entry is not in Smith, An Intimate Chronicle, 183, or in History of the Church. [p.404-405] Unfortunately I only have Schindler’s first edition, it seems that he found new information about the Worrell killing for the second edition. I doubt what he found would add much to Mike Quinn’s MH:1 or rereading Clayton’s entry.

Clayton makes it clear that it was the next day after the killing before the people in Nauvoo knew it was Worrell. I may be reading too much into that, but I think it means Rockwell did not know who he was shooting. Rockwell is reported by Mormon sources to have said after killing Worrell: “I aimed for his belt buckle,” and then added, “I was afraid my rifle couldn’t reach him, but it did, thank God.” Among other things I think this means that it was quite a distance Rockwell had to shoot leading me to believe he did not know who he was shooting.

Quinn has the following two interesting comments: 16 Sept. 1845 Orrin Porter Rockwell shoots Robert F. Smith and Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys militia who participated in the murder of Smith. Worrell dies. Later that day Rockwell kills four anti-Mormons at Highland Branch, near Warsaw, Illinois. [p.653]

According to Clayton diary, 17 Sept. 1845, LDS archives, after killing Worrell, Rockwell went to Highland Branch near the anti-Mormon headquarters of Warsaw and killed four more “mobocrats.” This part of the entry is not in Smith, An Intimate Chronicle, 183, or in History of the Church. [p.404-405]

]]> By: Kristine http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8991 Kristine Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:56:37 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8991 I have absolutely nothing substantive to say, just wanted to note that it warms the cockles of my nerdy little heart to see a blog post with 20 footnotes. I have absolutely nothing substantive to say, just wanted to note that it warms the cockles of my nerdy little heart to see a blog post with 20 footnotes.

]]> By: David G. http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8990 David G. Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:13:56 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8990 Thanks Mark for your thoughts on vengeance and justice. I'm intrigued by your suggestion. We'll have to discuss it some more. Joe, you're right about the polarity, part of which stems from the problem that we do have evidence to support both sides. So ideology usually makes people pick a side. Good call on the dating of the prayer and Worrell's slaying. I see the aftermath of the Worrell killing as another example of the Mormons retroactively claiming that God had brought vengeance upon their persecutors (i.e., in the same category as the post-MMM statements). I'm not aware of any evidence that when Rockwell pulled the trigger he felt he was avenging the blood of the prophets, are you? I see it more in terms of Worrell getting shot and then only afterward the Mormons saying that it was God working vengeance (through Rockwell). Thanks Mark for your thoughts on vengeance and justice. I’m intrigued by your suggestion. We’ll have to discuss it some more.

Joe, you’re right about the polarity, part of which stems from the problem that we do have evidence to support both sides. So ideology usually makes people pick a side.

Good call on the dating of the prayer and Worrell’s slaying. I see the aftermath of the Worrell killing as another example of the Mormons retroactively claiming that God had brought vengeance upon their persecutors (i.e., in the same category as the post-MMM statements). I’m not aware of any evidence that when Rockwell pulled the trigger he felt he was avenging the blood of the prophets, are you? I see it more in terms of Worrell getting shot and then only afterward the Mormons saying that it was God working vengeance (through Rockwell).

]]> By: Joe Geisner http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8983 Joe Geisner Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:30:31 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8983 A very nice and I believe gutsy post. Violence on the part of the Mormon's seems to be a hot topic, both with the new Mountain Meadows book coming out and Bill McKinnon's master piece "At Sword's Point". It is also a hot topic because people seem to polarize when discussing the subject. When you write that there is "conflicting evidence as to whether Mormons believed that they would be instruments in God’s hands to punish their enemies" I would consider the journal entry from Wm Clayton's journal is only three days after Frank Worrell's killing. The prayer you quote is also given by Brigham Young. A very nice and I believe gutsy post. Violence on the part of the Mormon’s seems to be a hot topic, both with the new Mountain Meadows book coming out and Bill McKinnon’s master piece “At Sword’s Point”. It is also a hot topic because people seem to polarize when discussing the subject.

When you write that there is “conflicting evidence as to whether Mormons believed that they would be instruments in God’s hands to punish their enemies” I would consider the journal entry from Wm Clayton’s journal is only three days after Frank Worrell’s killing. The prayer you quote is also given by Brigham Young.

]]> By: Mark Ashurst-McGee http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8980 Mark Ashurst-McGee Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:11:58 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8980 Vengeance appears in the revelations in parallel with justice. They are closely related if not aspects of the same quality. Vengeance is the Lord's because he is just. Still, there is such a different tone to us in the words "justice" and "vengeance". I wonder how the words sounded in the 1830s. Vengeance appears in the revelations in parallel with justice. They are closely related if not aspects of the same quality. Vengeance is the Lord’s because he is just. Still, there is such a different tone to us in the words “justice” and “vengeance”. I wonder how the words sounded in the 1830s.

]]> By: smb http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-8979 smb Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:54:24 +0000 http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/%e2%80%9cthe-saints-shall-have-power%e2%80%a6the-kingdom-to-take%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/#comment-8979 I cover #8 in the extended Buck paper. persecution is a major narrative for protestants and mormons, and OC once actually says that other groups had some truth because they were persecuted. look at the use of foxe's actes/monuments (book of martyrs) for both groups. am finishing up a KEP paper and then on to the Buck paper. it's an interesting topic to be sure. I cover #8 in the extended Buck paper. persecution is a major narrative for protestants and mormons, and OC once actually says that other groups had some truth because they were persecuted. look at the use of foxe’s actes/monuments (book of martyrs) for both groups.
am finishing up a KEP paper and then on to the Buck paper. it’s an interesting topic to be sure.

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